I've followed and agreed with this OP's critique for awhile.. it's also a justifiable and entertaining take. As a UI designer for 30 years, I have a sympathetic but slightly different view.
I grew up in the 80s with DOS software, when dropdown menus were new and our IBM PC didn't even have a mouse. Once the design idea emerged of using an icon in a menu, which I'd probably locate to the Apple menu on the 128k Mac, my whole life I've seen this push/pull between phases of design that have emphasized either information density or some kind of gloss.
The gloss that works, imho, isn't precisely what has iconic meaning, as the OP postulates. It's what the user becomes familiar with. There's a subtle difference there. An arbitrary icon can be made to mean something over time. But that has to be an intentional process, and it should be tied to a larger theory of the branding and iconography or the company. Otherwise, it's probably worse than useless, even if it does literally signify the action.
Lately, in the last 10 years, I've found myself doing hybrids. I treat icons in selection modes as something like an emoji. If an icon is so universally understandable that no text is necessary, I might prefer it. Otherwise, it would be included only if I need to draw a user's attention to something more than the other items. For example, an extra icon next to a pending issue waiting for approval.
I think the main thing is to consider theae design choices. No one is perfectly correct. We have a lot of tools at our disposal, and too much of anything is bad if it's not thought through for every mode the user could see.
cosmic_cheese
I think this and many other questionable UI decisions across the industry in recent years is the fallout of the old guard of UI designers having rotated out for younger replacements in the past decade with little transfer of knowledge occurring.
The lack of transfer I don't think is out of unwillingness from the old guard, but rather due to the greenhorns throwing everything that came before their time out without questioning the reasoning behind any of it (Chesterton’s Fence) and assuming that whatever they came up with was superior and better fit for the modern era ("those old principles can't possibly hold, we have touch screens now!").
It's also been made worse by UI design roles having been taken by those with backgrounds in unrelated design disciplines, as well as sites like Dribbble which reward pretty mockups over working products. This leads to overemphasis on the visual aspect of the UI and not enough on its functional and usability aspects.
show comments
paxy
This Apple devotion is really something else..
Looking at all their design missteps and corrections in recent releases my only takeaway is that they are making it up as they go along just like the rest of us.
show comments
kevin_thibedeau
> John Gruber wrote about this reversion back in June, including the fact that Apple’s new Human Interface Guidelines specifically call out Tahoe’s approach to menus as an example of what not to do on macOS.
Apple knew this was bad 20 years ago. They just don't bother to read their own documentation:
Apple Human Interface Guidelines (2008) [1] p. 170:
> If you do include icons in your menus, include them only for menu items for which they add significant value; don’t include them for every menu item. A menu that includes too many icons (or poorly designed ones) can appear cluttered and be hard to read.
> They designed it, shipped it, lived with it for a year, then publicly changed their guidance on it. To me, that’s a lot more persuasive than simply saying, “Apple doesn’t do this.”
> Choosing not to do something you’ve never done is one thing.
> Choosing not to do something you’ve done is experience.
A more persuasive sales pitch for me to consider Apple products would be if the company had judgement not to ship such a hot mess of a sloppy product in the first place...
show comments
Andrew_nenakhov
Humans are very good at distinguishing shapes and colors. Visually distinct icons of various shapes help build muscle memory and quickly find the needed option.
One of the worst trends in icons is this insatiable desire to put different icons into uniform shapes.
For example, this trend resulted in tragic replacement of beautiful varied and distinct Android icons that were introduced in Android 5 to the uglicity we have now.
On iOS, beautiful SFSymbol icons that floated beautifully on flat surfaces since iOS 7.0 were encased in absolutely similar circular 'liquid Glass' blobs. Sad.
show comments
quibono
1. Read the post
2. Click on the hamburger menu in the top right
3. ???
show comments
VyseofArcadia
There's a sort of unthinking maximalism in corporate culture. I'm sure Tahoe's menus are the product of a conversation that looks roughly like:
"Hey our metrics show that menu items with icons are interacted with more often."
"Oh we should put icons on every menu item and get our usage numbers up."
"I agree, bigger numbers are more impressive and will get us promotions or bonuses."
show comments
Kuraj
I love KDE but they could take some notes from this!
show comments
vor_
I can't stand that keyboard shortcuts for menu items are the same color as the disabled menu item color. It's mixing two meanings for the same color in the same UI element. Despite this being the style for years, I still have a split-second interpretation of non-interactivity every time I see it.
Waterluvian
The only time I think you ever need an icon beside text is if the exact same feature is found elsewhere as an icon only. And even then ask yourself if it can be avoided.
insin
What are the odds the next version of macOS reverts most of what happened in Tahoe? After having it forced on my work MacBook, I will not willingly install that trash UI on any device I own.
show comments
nercht12
Does anyone have a list of guidelines for good UI design that they would recommend?
As I have to design UI myself, I'd be quite interested. Personally, I do favor a mix in my UI: icons for obvious-or-frequently-used stuff (like Save, Undo, Help, Sort A-Z, etc, all of which usually have standard icons (except for Save now)) and plain text for things that can't be expressed by icon (like "Refactor XYZ").
show comments
pugfugly
Whoever thought hieroglyphics were a good replacement for text should be drawn and quartered.
trashface
I'm just an unwashed linux user but I kind of like the icons for the days of the week, they seem funny and appropriate for each day.
ripharamberip
I don't quite understand. Icons by default obviously is stupid. But meaningful icons for actions such as copy and paste seems like a very good idea to me.
Personally I think there are not enough icons in MacOS right click menus for example. For me an icon makes it much easier to find the action I want to hse
show comments
peterburkimsher
Suppose you've remotely accessed a Windows computer with no icons in the menu.
You've figured out how to access the Start menu, and figured out where the Power menu is through the icon, but now have a choice between 關機 and 重新開機.
Which one is shut down, which is reboot?
You have one chance, otherwise it requires an embarrassing trip to the server farm.
That specific case led me to make the following table of Windows strings in other languages:
Although icons in every menu is too cluttered, please don't remove them entirely. At the very least, keep an icon on every menu item that needs to be clicked until the Language setting menu. Oh, and please don't translate the languages in the menu: the user needs to be able to read their own language button.
kingforaday
> "putting an icon in every menu item by default which shipped with macOS Tahoe — but now it’s gone in Golden Gate"
They needed to make room for Siri.
emadabdulrahim
One of my pet peeves is deleting an item is "Move to Trash". With no trash icon, I want labels to front-load the key word so the menu/list is scannable.
dchest
My favorite thing about this is a checkbox in Xcode's Interface Builder (or whatever it's called now) for menu items image — "Only for macOS 26".
farmin
The windows 11 right click menu should revert as well. It’s like a menu over a menu. You need 2 clicks to get to what you need.
show comments
mrheosuper
I think icon in every menu is fine. The problem is choosing the wrong icon. The icon could just be text, you know, Like [TU]:Tuesday.
English is not my native language, so i was having a very hard time to learn how to use computer, with icon, my 8 Years old brain can kind of infer what is its meaning.
BurningFrog
When the Mac UI took over (some of) the world, many thought it was because of the icons, so they put icons all over their UIs.
That was of course not at all what made the MacOS so usable. The real principles were explained in detail in Apples UI guidelines. But hardly anyone read those, so the icons have been with us for 30 years.
inventor7777
Ironically, I kind of liked the icons in the menus.
But at the end of the day, it was like Liquid Glass itself - looks sick in presentations, but in real life, it looks pretty awful.
minimaxa
You first? Lol
Art vs. minimalism in design
Icons are today's form of hieroglyphs for communication?
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I've followed and agreed with this OP's critique for awhile.. it's also a justifiable and entertaining take. As a UI designer for 30 years, I have a sympathetic but slightly different view.
I grew up in the 80s with DOS software, when dropdown menus were new and our IBM PC didn't even have a mouse. Once the design idea emerged of using an icon in a menu, which I'd probably locate to the Apple menu on the 128k Mac, my whole life I've seen this push/pull between phases of design that have emphasized either information density or some kind of gloss.
The gloss that works, imho, isn't precisely what has iconic meaning, as the OP postulates. It's what the user becomes familiar with. There's a subtle difference there. An arbitrary icon can be made to mean something over time. But that has to be an intentional process, and it should be tied to a larger theory of the branding and iconography or the company. Otherwise, it's probably worse than useless, even if it does literally signify the action.
Lately, in the last 10 years, I've found myself doing hybrids. I treat icons in selection modes as something like an emoji. If an icon is so universally understandable that no text is necessary, I might prefer it. Otherwise, it would be included only if I need to draw a user's attention to something more than the other items. For example, an extra icon next to a pending issue waiting for approval.
I think the main thing is to consider theae design choices. No one is perfectly correct. We have a lot of tools at our disposal, and too much of anything is bad if it's not thought through for every mode the user could see.
I think this and many other questionable UI decisions across the industry in recent years is the fallout of the old guard of UI designers having rotated out for younger replacements in the past decade with little transfer of knowledge occurring.
The lack of transfer I don't think is out of unwillingness from the old guard, but rather due to the greenhorns throwing everything that came before their time out without questioning the reasoning behind any of it (Chesterton’s Fence) and assuming that whatever they came up with was superior and better fit for the modern era ("those old principles can't possibly hold, we have touch screens now!").
It's also been made worse by UI design roles having been taken by those with backgrounds in unrelated design disciplines, as well as sites like Dribbble which reward pretty mockups over working products. This leads to overemphasis on the visual aspect of the UI and not enough on its functional and usability aspects.
This Apple devotion is really something else..
Looking at all their design missteps and corrections in recent releases my only takeaway is that they are making it up as they go along just like the rest of us.
> John Gruber wrote about this reversion back in June, including the fact that Apple’s new Human Interface Guidelines specifically call out Tahoe’s approach to menus as an example of what not to do on macOS.
Apple knew this was bad 20 years ago. They just don't bother to read their own documentation:
Apple Human Interface Guidelines (2008) [1] p. 170:
> If you do include icons in your menus, include them only for menu items for which they add significant value; don’t include them for every menu item. A menu that includes too many icons (or poorly designed ones) can appear cluttered and be hard to read.
[1] https://acko.net/files/zoomer/apple-hig-2008.pdf
The conclusion is too forgiving...
> They designed it, shipped it, lived with it for a year, then publicly changed their guidance on it. To me, that’s a lot more persuasive than simply saying, “Apple doesn’t do this.”
> Choosing not to do something you’ve never done is one thing.
> Choosing not to do something you’ve done is experience.
A more persuasive sales pitch for me to consider Apple products would be if the company had judgement not to ship such a hot mess of a sloppy product in the first place...
Humans are very good at distinguishing shapes and colors. Visually distinct icons of various shapes help build muscle memory and quickly find the needed option.
One of the worst trends in icons is this insatiable desire to put different icons into uniform shapes.
For example, this trend resulted in tragic replacement of beautiful varied and distinct Android icons that were introduced in Android 5 to the uglicity we have now.
On iOS, beautiful SFSymbol icons that floated beautifully on flat surfaces since iOS 7.0 were encased in absolutely similar circular 'liquid Glass' blobs. Sad.
1. Read the post
2. Click on the hamburger menu in the top right
3. ???
There's a sort of unthinking maximalism in corporate culture. I'm sure Tahoe's menus are the product of a conversation that looks roughly like:
"Hey our metrics show that menu items with icons are interacted with more often."
"Oh we should put icons on every menu item and get our usage numbers up."
"I agree, bigger numbers are more impressive and will get us promotions or bonuses."
I love KDE but they could take some notes from this!
I can't stand that keyboard shortcuts for menu items are the same color as the disabled menu item color. It's mixing two meanings for the same color in the same UI element. Despite this being the style for years, I still have a split-second interpretation of non-interactivity every time I see it.
The only time I think you ever need an icon beside text is if the exact same feature is found elsewhere as an icon only. And even then ask yourself if it can be avoided.
What are the odds the next version of macOS reverts most of what happened in Tahoe? After having it forced on my work MacBook, I will not willingly install that trash UI on any device I own.
Does anyone have a list of guidelines for good UI design that they would recommend? As I have to design UI myself, I'd be quite interested. Personally, I do favor a mix in my UI: icons for obvious-or-frequently-used stuff (like Save, Undo, Help, Sort A-Z, etc, all of which usually have standard icons (except for Save now)) and plain text for things that can't be expressed by icon (like "Refactor XYZ").
Whoever thought hieroglyphics were a good replacement for text should be drawn and quartered.
I'm just an unwashed linux user but I kind of like the icons for the days of the week, they seem funny and appropriate for each day.
I don't quite understand. Icons by default obviously is stupid. But meaningful icons for actions such as copy and paste seems like a very good idea to me. Personally I think there are not enough icons in MacOS right click menus for example. For me an icon makes it much easier to find the action I want to hse
Suppose you've remotely accessed a Windows computer with no icons in the menu.
You've figured out how to access the Start menu, and figured out where the Power menu is through the icon, but now have a choice between 關機 and 重新開機.
Which one is shut down, which is reboot?
You have one chance, otherwise it requires an embarrassing trip to the server farm.
That specific case led me to make the following table of Windows strings in other languages:
https://peterburk.github.io/i2018n/windowsStringsTable/index...
Although icons in every menu is too cluttered, please don't remove them entirely. At the very least, keep an icon on every menu item that needs to be clicked until the Language setting menu. Oh, and please don't translate the languages in the menu: the user needs to be able to read their own language button.
> "putting an icon in every menu item by default which shipped with macOS Tahoe — but now it’s gone in Golden Gate"
They needed to make room for Siri.
One of my pet peeves is deleting an item is "Move to Trash". With no trash icon, I want labels to front-load the key word so the menu/list is scannable.
My favorite thing about this is a checkbox in Xcode's Interface Builder (or whatever it's called now) for menu items image — "Only for macOS 26".
The windows 11 right click menu should revert as well. It’s like a menu over a menu. You need 2 clicks to get to what you need.
I think icon in every menu is fine. The problem is choosing the wrong icon. The icon could just be text, you know, Like [TU]:Tuesday.
English is not my native language, so i was having a very hard time to learn how to use computer, with icon, my 8 Years old brain can kind of infer what is its meaning.
When the Mac UI took over (some of) the world, many thought it was because of the icons, so they put icons all over their UIs.
That was of course not at all what made the MacOS so usable. The real principles were explained in detail in Apples UI guidelines. But hardly anyone read those, so the icons have been with us for 30 years.
Ironically, I kind of liked the icons in the menus.
But at the end of the day, it was like Liquid Glass itself - looks sick in presentations, but in real life, it looks pretty awful.
You first? Lol
Art vs. minimalism in design
Icons are today's form of hieroglyphs for communication?
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