I don't know enough to argue about whether passkeys are a trap or not, but I do know as a user that they appear to be a confusing mess.
When a website prompts me to set up a passkey, depending on the device I happen to be using at the time it could end up going to Google password manager, Samsung password manager, iCloud Keychain, or Windows somethingorother.
What happens when I go to the same site on a different platform? What if I can't use cross-device authentication because I'm on a locked-down work machine or one that simply doesn't have bluetooth? What if I want to consolidate them all in one platform just for the sake of being organised? What if I lose or simply don't have the device with a certain passkey near me?
I don't have the time or patience to work out any of that, which might absolutely be a 'me' problem, but TOTPs are pretty sodding frictionless in comparison. Scan QR in my chosen manager; type number into website; done. Why are passkeys better?
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coaksford
"...if attestation is the thing you're worried about, the post's own recommendation pushes you towards attestation rather than away from it!"
It is plainly obvious that the worry isn't attestation per se, it's the restrictions that attestation may in the future require when they turn the dial on restrictiveness up, that was extremely clear to me from reading the first article. If you can get attestation without those restrictions, "sure, why not", and a Yubikey seems like a way to do that which could avoid those restrictions. Most of this article makes sense, but this particular line makes me wonder how the author got it so far off the mark.
They also did nothing to quell my fears that they will in the future use passkeys to prevent people from using software they can modify themselves by saying "...the guidance for consumer sites has been to not even request attestation for years now." as if everyone always followed the guidance, and as if there aren't tens of thousands of managers that think their case is special and they really do need the extra control because they're a bank or handle copyrighted content or have PII or PCI and feel extra risk-averse today.
I don't know if they failed to do so because they can't (and this is a valid fear of the original author) or if they just are bad at reading the room at what the concern is and vastly overestimate how much people trust companies to always have their best interests at heart.
What I am getting from this, though, is "If you authenticate with a yubikey then that's attested, so they can't use attestation through passkeys to make sure your OS and browser aren't modified", and I'm not sure if that's the correct take away or even a correct statement.
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NoidFonsense
This blog post is the perfect example of someone rationalizing away the bigger picture.
It's true that passkeys do not require hardware and OS attestation today, so all of the specific examples you cite are true. But the point remains that that passkeys can be EASILY extended to require hardware and OS attestation, and this will happen.
Banks have already done this. Before using an app was optional. Play protect was optional. It's like my uncle ted used to say, techonolgy is not optional.
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Vexs
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Am I missing something? "Attestation tells websites what the authenticator is but it doesn't tell the website what the authenticator is".
The entire argument in this blogpost amounts to "nobody would ever turn on passkey attestation because it would require migration of people who already setup passkeys" which is a questionable argument- you could trivially imagine allowing unattested passkeys for existing users, but require it for new users. Most websites don't yet support passkeys to begin with, so this argument doesn't hold for the majority of websites.
The "biggest providers" bit at the end is odd too because the biggest providers are apple/google- who, as far as I know, do support attestation.
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freakynit
Do not handover your identity, or verification of it (as the current case is) to anyone else, irrespective of the benefits, including the security aspect.
---
The author has strong incentives for the success of passkeys.
1. Scott Helme is founder and CEO of Report URI, and Companies House records his ownership at over 25% and up to 50%. Report URI markets a "Passkeys Protection" offering, giving him a commercial interest in services for passkey adopters.
2. His WhyNoPasskeys.com campaign pushes websites to adopt passkeys, is sponsored by Report URI, and promotes its passkey protection services. The "Passkeys Are Not a Trap" article also carries a Report URI sponsor banner.
3. Troy Hunt, Helme’s Report URI business partner and investor, joined 1Password’s advisory board in 2020; Helme has also appeared in Hunt’s 1Password-sponsored content. That establishes an indirect vendor connection.
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PaulHoule
"Password manager you trust..."
Not so easy.
I've worked at places where we use a password manager to manage lots of passwords for random services that we subscribe to. The engineering manager always says "you can put your own passwords in for free" and I say "no thanks, they're going to get hacked" and then six months later... they get hacked.
I use the password manager on my iPhone because it seems pretty secure and it is so miserable to type passwords in on a phone but my other solution for passwords has used cryptographic generation with the database playing only a secondary role and it is fine for passwords but does nothing for passkeys.
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_bent
The author is really missing the forest for the trees here
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
So if I was Netflix or a bank or w/ever I'd only allow new registrations from "trusted" authenticators, which would incidentally only run on iOS and play-protected Android.
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tennysont
> [Attestation] say nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Largely false. The Pixel verifies the OS and will reveal `verifiedBootState != Verified` on GrapheneOS in the attested passkey at registration, which websites may choose to reject. Apple Silicon has an undocumented SEP which prevents Asahi Linux from accessing it. There may be other examples now or in the future.
Also, I think you can deduce the device color from [1] on Android.
So: currently, the cauldron is cold, therefore ignore the fire below it and hop right in.
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throw7
As far as I've read here before, device attestation is definitely there, it's just not being used (one of the big tech namely Apple is balking... maybe they have their own means or plans in their ecosystem).
My main reason for not using it is I'm not interested participating in a scheme where I do not own/access the private keys and being able to use them and store them the way I want to.
I'm fine with TOTP and sure, I understand it's not phishing resistant by itself.
the_mitsuhiko
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Practical experience from Austria where attestation is used to limit which hardware tokens can be used for the EU digital identity: it sucks. You're limited to a very limited number of keys: https://www.id-austria.gv.at/de/hilfe/hilfe-zu-ida/authentif...
Now: will more people do this? I don't know. But I fault the standard for enabling it in the first place.
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jerf
I think the passkey standard included attestation for good reasons, but it is obviously also possibly a trap in the sense that I'm sure there were some people on the standards committee(s) envisioning a glorious world where they can flip this on for everyone and instantly all the bad stuff stops.
I have to admit I don't worry too much about the entire internet flicking attestation=true anytime though, because the resulting support nightmare would be ferociously expensive. I wouldn't be surprised that, on its own, it would be more expensive than the cases that the companies flipping the switch are trying to avoid. Which means it isn't going to happen.
The simple truth is metaphorical-Grandma can't handle the degree of responsibility put on the user that strict hardware attestation implies. Netflix et al are more likely to want metaphorical-Grandma's money more than an incremental improvement in their ability to be sure it's an attested login, and won't want metaphorical-Grandma to call Netflix every other week trying to figure out how to log in again. There is no way around the fact that strict attestation implies more user responsibility to make sure they don't lose their token, and at scale, they absolutely will. Work environments can get away with this because work environments have a scalable mechanism to re-verify identity to the extent the business cares about it personally, and reissue tokens. At scale the big companies do not have this for individuals. You can't use hardware attestation without this infrastructure for reverification, and any infrastructure for reverification a large corporation tries to create will have exploitable holes in it.
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hbn
I still don't use passkeys because I don't know what advantage it has over my existing method of generating random passwords in my passport manager and using that. My password manager generally autofills it anyway.
I know where my password manager syncs, it's on all my devices. Passkey prompts always seem confusing, I don't know if it's going to save to my browser, or my OS, or if those are gonna sync on what devices. It's just more confusing.
What would I gain from using a passkey?
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glaslong
> If you want to be able to move your credentials around, pick a provider that supports that
The fact that passkeys are not required to be portable is the entire trap
I don't use passkeys but the thing that raised a red flag for me while reading the article that the OP is responding to is the "non-copyable" property. It's not possible to prohibit delegation[0], so the idea that a key can only be used on one specific device necessarily involves a form of DRM/wishful thinking.
Look, at best, Passkeys shift your logins from your head to OS-supplied keychain management. Whether they do attestation today or not, they big, industry-wide effort to move away from "what you know" (i.e. username/password) + "what you have" (2FA) towards "platform-authenticates-you-to-website automatically" has both security benefits and lock-in risks.
Maybe it was too strong to say the were a "trap", but it is also too strong to say there is no worries here.
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rietta
I actually spoke up about this at a local chamber meeting today during my 30 second elevator pitch. I decided to give a brief cybersecurity awareness month pitch about having backups for your 2FA and to be wary of passkeys because you will be locked out on device changes.
I think they are a trap. A usability nightmare. So, I acquiesce to a passkey to a site while on my iPhone and now I cannot log onto it from my work desktop in Firefox. An older person sets it up on his or her Google account, gets a new phone (iPhone to Android) or Android to iPhone doesn't matter and loses access. We know that Google won't help a regular consumer with anything.
Syncing may be a thing in theory but the friction is huge.
dllu
I recently had the displeasure of using Passkeys:
- trying to sign in to Okta on my personal Linux desktop computer. It has bluetooth and I had my phone right next to me, also with bluetooth turned on. But Firefox simply refuses to even show the option for "connect to your phone" or to give a QR code... it just said "tap your security key or biometric device". I had neither; my passkey is on my phone. Then it timed out and I gave up trying to log in.
- trying to sign in on my work Macbook using Google Chrome (enterprise managed one). For some reason, upon scanning the QR code, my phone was stuck on "Connecting..." and timed out. I had bluetooth turned on on both devices, they were five centimeters apart, both were connected to internet with a great gigabit connection. It turns out, I had to quit and restart Chrome and it magically started working.
- trying to sign in on my work desktop using a physical Yubikey remotely using VNC. It's not possible by design. I had to get my coworker to press my Yubikey in the office.
- trying to get Muse and OpenAI Dot to sign in using a passkey. It's not possible by design.
Generally, the user experience is really horrible with passkeys. It is also ironic that it trusts my phone (used for shitposting; easily lost or stolen) instantly, but simply refuses to trust my personal Linux desktop computer, which is fully encrypted, securely stored in my house, and contains all my life's work and everything that is dear to me.
YakBizzarro
Counterexample: the swisspass. It's a private service from the swisspost, and they whitelist webauthn providers. For example, you can't use bitwarden https://community.bitwarden.com/t/follow-up-on-bitwarden-pas...
So the danger is there today, not in the future, since I'm already cut out today from the service, unless I use some hack
abraxas
What I'd like to understand is why the majority of sites that allegedly supoprt passkeys do not let me store them on Yubikey hardware but instead are pushing into "cloud" passkeys. That's what is triggering my spidey sense about the whole scheme. If they are so great all around and vendor neutral why is everyone pushing me to store my keys in some "cloud" password manager? If I'm going to the trouble of setting up passkeys I want to be in control of them across all my accounts. That means my own hardware dongle. Not some cloud vendor's pinky swear that they'll take care of them and let me use them on my terms.
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sdcfgy
Let us consider the average user. The one who manages to lose their iPhone and has no idea what their iCloud account login is because they were aware of having to log into it once when they created the account at phone purchase 3 years previously.
That's where the trap is.
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embeng4096
I'm a happy user of 1Password myself, but warning that they only allow export of passkeys through a specific protocol, and it has to be done on the mobile app. [0]
Let’s assume passkeys are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Passkeys face the same problem as the USB-C rollout. Lots of different incompatible implementations and standards rolled under one name that are almost impossible to distinguish between. Very little education on how to use it and be prepared for it.
The difference is that the consequences of getting passkeys wrong for the user is significantly greater than getting the wrong cable, and while the latter can easily be fixed, the former may be irreversible.
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chrchr
I'm not an expert, but it's frustrating to read these threads about passkeys.
The common objection I see here is "But if I lose my device I'm locked out!"
A lost passkey should be treated the same as a lost password.
Sites that implement passkeys need to have an account recovery mechanism. Granted, not every site does this correctly. Don't use passkeys on sites that don't have a recovery mechanism!
Secondly, the site you're authenticating to must allow you to have multiple passkeys. You either have a cloud-synced password manager so that all of your devices get the same passkey, or you have a passkey per device that you use to access the site. Again, not every site allows multiple passkeys. Don't use passkeys on sites that don't allow you to have multiple passkeys.
For a site implements both of these properties correctly, if you lose your device, you just connect to the site with your new device, perform whatever account recovery procedure (TOTP, email verification, phone verification, ...), create a new passkey, and, ideally, disable the passkey from your lost device.
woeirua
Passkeys are such a flaming disaster from a UX standpoint. I can't recommend anyone use them.
goda90
I don't find this post convincing.
> If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that? Besides, the guidance for consumer sites has been to not even request attestation for years now.
This isn't a rebuttal to the claim that they're a hidden dial. It's just saying that it's too early to crank the dial.
>Attestation Isn't What You Think It Is
>The post describes attestation as proving "that an approved passkey manager, operating system, and firmware are in use" which is simply not true.
>When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
This point is bypassed by websites only supporting specific authenticators and then those specific authenticators only supporting specific devices/OSs/browsers/etc via other attestation frameworks.
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traverseda
Passkeys can be tied to a root of trust, like those owned by google, microsoft, apple.
Currently they aren't tied to that root of trust.
Most of those organizations have shown that they don't want people owning their own devices or being able to run their own software, and they use developer attestations, IE a revocable programming license to accomplish that.
Tools like android's safetynet makes it so that you can't run banking apps on a phone running your own software. One that bypasses developer attestations.
Passkeys are currently an open standard, but attestation is built in such a way as that it could be only usable on n approved operating system with programmer licenses.
Big websites like amazon, or websites you need to exist in society, could gradually start requiring the usage of attested passkeys.
---
There is a clear path from passkeys to the death of general purpose computing for 99% of people. Don't be a useful idiot, don't assume these corporations have your best interest in heart. See this for what it is, a path towards killing people's ability to run unlicensed software on their own devices.
LocalPCGuy
I have seen an exception to this with Microsoft Entra. I was not able to store and use the passkey in my password manager of choice, I had to save it in Microsoft Authenticator. I haven't tried again lately since that was for a previous job, and I didn't look into the underlying reason it failed, whether it was attestation of some sort or something else about how they set it up.
I'm generally pro-passkeys, but also acknowledge they are a hot mess for the average non-techy consumer. And there does seem to be room for the screws to tighten, and we definitely need to resist that.
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zaptheimpaler
The counter-argument he makes against people's concerns about attestation is laughable, all he says is that it hasn't happened yet.
Passkeys are not designed just for security, there are other corporate interests involved. It's impossible to share logins for example. He even mentioned this concern and didn't address it.
The device/app lockdowns are already real for TOTP - Microsoft and others insist on using their snowflake authenticator instead of using the standard protocol. So it's not unlikely that they will extend that kind of lock-in to all passkeys.
OtomotO
They don't solve a problem I have. So I am not eager to adapt them
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jgrahamc
I find the following has the right combination of mental model and security for me:
1. A password manager that generates my passwords stored on an external USB key (which is itself encrypted). I use KeepPassXC.
2. More than one Yubikey doing U2F.
I know how to backup #1 and I have more than one of #2 to handle losing a Yubikey. #2 gives me phishing protection.
randusername
I have to say the messaging around passkeys is bad. So many providers show modals with big friendly lock logos superimposed on a smartphone to announce the change without offering any explanation about why the change is happening, why the change is happening now, or how the technology works.
I don't know when it started, I don't know who is to blame, but we've definitely arrived at a conceptualization of "the user" that is passive, uncurious, and incapable of being talked to like an adult.
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maratc
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up.
Me: The person who posted this post critical of The King on Facebook was totally not me!
Police: Here's "a WebAuthn attestation" that told Facebook "the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up" and it fits Evidence A.
No thanks.
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benlivengood
Last time I tried using Firefox on Linux with Keepass's passkey implementation it worked on the test page and a couple other sites but Facebook refused to add it, so I definitely believe that e.g. banks and various other important sites won't balk at restricting passkeys to Android, iOS/MacOS, and Windows. I am curious what other people's practical experience is with these kinds of sites.
mlfreeman
I've set up a few passkeys to see what it's like and the experience is wildly different between sites.
State Farm is the only place I've actually liked it. I don't have to type ANYTHING in.
Open browser, open password manager, click the "sign in with existing passkey", browser and password manager talk, prompt me to confirm the passkey choice, and I'm in.
Most sites I've messed with insist on you entering a username first.
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OJFord
Trap or not I don't want them and the UX is shit and user-hostile.
Velocifyer
For me, randomly generated passwords(via proton pass) combined with remembering to check the URL stops phishing and is easier to share.
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hedora
If they are not a trap, then the standard should be amended to allow third party implementations to forge attestations.
Otherwise, it is a trap. The story of the last 25 years of the internet is user hostile ratcheting away of the open web. Passkeys are obviously another step in the process.
dclaw
I don't want passkeys. I want to stop being bothered with setting up passkeys, especially if I already have 2FA setup, and definitely if I already have a hardware fido key on the account.
embeng4096
Some context I think is missing: TFA's author claims to use passkeys for 2FA (and so, not as a password replacement as I think is often implicitly assumed in discussion):
> This one can be tricky because I've seen many sites using passkeys to replace passwords, but that's not something we've done on Report URI, passkeys are used as a 2FA mechanism.
I use ProtonPass on every device I own (religiously) and have never had an issue. But it's because I'm very careful to only deal with any credential ever via ProtonPass.
I can imagine it gets annoying very fast if you accidentally put a passkey in the wrong place, ie because Chrome proposes it's own credentials store.
ProtonPass also lets me export the private parts so I'm not stuck as with some passkey managers.
Passkeys are great but require you to understand some things about them, and you need discipline in dealing with them.
RHSeeger
Every point in that post has been discussed at length other places, some of which is in the HN thread the author mentions. And the discussions make it clear that the points being made are not seeing the problem - not that there isn't a problem.
Passkeys have benefits - but they also have problems. Many people just don't think the benefits are worth the problems. And many people are afraid that sites will just stop accepting passwords in favor of passkeys, leaving people worse off.
happyopossum
Almost every complaint I see about passkeys seems to be based on behavior and configurations I just do not see in the real world.
“Once I set up a passkey I can’t log in from another device” - have never seen this to be the case. Existing password / OTP codes have always worked as a fallback if syncing somehow breaks.
“I don’t want to trust Apple/MS/Google with my logins” - so don’t. Use bitwarden or 1Password or lastpass or whatever you want to store your passkeys.
“If I lose my phone I’m screwed” - see #1 and enable sync maybe?
Boils down to I believe a lot of folks looked at passkey implementation at a high level, saw some potential pitfalls, and never actually used them to discover those pitfalls have all been accounted for.
Go ahead and skip passkeys if you want, but stop preaching about evils that don’t exist.
hahamaster
Passkeys are great for developers who are into cryptography and security, and who understand the idea and implementation behind it. For the rest of us it's something to avoid.
I don't use passkeys anywhere for fear of losing access. I just don't care enough to study how it really works. With passwords, I occasionally print out all my important passwords and store them in a safe and I know there's no way I could lose access.
nonfunctional
I put a reply to this article in the comment section of "Passkeys are a trap. Do not use them."
I'm moving my HSA because the company moved to passkeys.
I use unique email addresses and passwords, stored only on my devices(Linux, Windows, Android) using open source software (KeepassXC, KeepassDX). Passkeys add new friction I don't need.
laserbeam
The og article talks about future concerns even though things are fine today. This article claims things are fine today.
True, but doesn’t actually refute the original.
apexalpha
I introduced Passkeys in my company.
Every single IT person thought it would be an extreme mess, too complicated for regular users. In my company we work on the (gas) grid so lot's of blue collar types.
We went there, gave the pilot group a Yubikey and said: This is like the company pass you already have. Without the company pass you cannot enter any buildings. Without the Passkey you cannot enter a computer or app.
If you lose it report to the same people (service desk).
The response has been EXTREMELY POSITIVE. People fucking LOVE getting rid of passwords, password requirements and taking off their gloves to enter it every time.
We are now rolling it out to everyone and next year when we stop our silly "phishing game" contract we will actually save money while reducing a massive cyber security risk for our company: (voice) phishing.
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chung8123
As a user if you push something too hard I immediately think what the angle is. That is how i feel about passkeys.
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timmyc123
Lot's of additional great information for consumers and prosumers at whatarepasskeys.info. Many of the questions that are constantly discussed in these comments are answered in the FAQ and content.
Contributions and feedback are welcome! GitHub link is at the bottom of the page.
lelandbatey
Saying "attestation can't hurt you, your password manager returns `none` today so it's not a concern" is avoiding the entire point of the original article which was that that can change at any time! I'm already seeing in a corporate context, IT departments forcing hardware attestation as required everywhere. Justifiable, but also clear evidence that it's no longer in your control as the person authenticating. That's the point, passkeys are marginally more secure for you, while handing huge amounts of control to centralized platforms.
teravor
domain binding requires browser participation.
you can have a TOTP variant which has the browser display a challenge string & QR code, authenticator generates a 5-6 digit response. include more entropy in the response if you want to do away with the password entirely.
passkeys are trash, I would never opt for dedicated hardware (or a cloud service) and using them with a password manager is extremely messy when you want the password manager to be properly isolated from the rest of your system.
xoa
I think it's a bad sign when someone immediately resorts to strawmen and argument from incredulity in their counter-argument:
>If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that?
The original didn't argue that, nor has absolutely anyone else concerned, nor has that been what has happened in historical examples people were concerned about. Because yeah of course that's ridiculous, it's "boiling a frog" by throwing it in already boiling water, that's not how it works. If anyone has freedom-reducing longer term plans for use of passkey attestation, the emphasis is on "longer term", being malicious doesn't mean being stupid. Step 1 is obviously getting people into the passkey ecosystem and out of passwords at all, which could well take years. And importantly as much as possible into closed passkey ecosystems. This is indeed one of the initial danger signs, because the author:
>iCloud Keychain, Google Password Manager, 1Password, Bitwarden
Is mixing together things that aren't like the other. Quick author, what's the EXPORT story for each of these ecosystems? Of those, Bitwarden can export a passkey into a plain JSON if you want. Do the others support that too, or at best only "app to app" encrypted transfer, creating a closed ecosystem? Already, can I get passkeys from iCloud/Google/1Pass into KeePass? Or is this restricted """for my protection :^)"""?
Author doesn't even touch on the lock-in that's already beginning. And right now everyone can technically claim "oh no of course you're not locked in! You just have to use an official option, or you can merely visit hundreds of sites individually and register new passkeys in all of them". Is it hard to see how players like Bitwarden would be pressured on continuing to offer plain export?
Then when most of the population is using passkeys everywhere in a closed ecosystem, now what is the response if friction slowly starts getting added. OK, you can still use what you like, but only export to other approved players. OK, you can still use unattested, but it's off by default now, "advanced users" can go enable it with this checkbox in the settings. OK, manual is still an option, but now it's buried deep and behind dark patterns and requires a text command. Hi everyone, we have statistics to show that only 0.85% of our users still use unattested keys. The support burden and security risk is now too high."
Like, we've seen this movie before.
nogridbag
Not sure if this mentioned, but I setup a new Gmail account and it wouldn't let me add my yubikey for MFA. I could only add a passkey to my yubikey for MFA.
hn_submit
Wouldn't web browsers themselves be the ultimate passkey managers like they already do with passwords? They'd need a way to export the passkeys to another passkey manager though.
verdverm
Biometrics is my main concern around this, and in that the government can compel you to provide them for device unlock, unlike a pin or password.
Until we change our laws in the US on this front, I will continue to use passwords and hardware keys separate from my phone box.
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efields
I figured they weren't. People smarter than me made them.
I think they've been implemented well in some cases. I think they've been implemented poorly in others.
So it goes.
INTPenis
I mean the desire to trap seems to be among the big corporations already.
I keep seeing major players promoting their own apps over standard TOTP, which I guess could be seen as a sort of proprietary passkey. Shopify, Google, Microsoft, and more, they all want you to download their app for MFA, instead of using a very open format.
As someone who works in IT, I just can't even imagine myself doing this. I have probably around 60 codes in my Aegis, how would it look if I had just a quarter of those in apps instead?
But the main issue I have with passkeys is the simple issue of backups. I can backup my Aegis keys, I can't backup an app, or a hw passkey. I have to get a second one, and keep signing for it or something, not sure of the details, I just know it would be a major hassle. And there is no way I'm trusting a little usb device to not break.
Right now I see no compelling reason to switch from regular OTP codes, change my mind.
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mzajc
I was expecting the author to at least address the thinly veiled threat to blacklist KeePassXC at [0] (via the very same mechanism they claim is harmless), but of course it's not even mentioned.
I'm sorry, but if your system allows someone to make a credible threat like this, you should make sure to redesign your protocol so that kind of abuse is not possible BEFORE advocating for it. I'm so incredibly sick of people repeating history, only to disappear once we're all roped into yet another anti-user scheme.
I try to avoid passkeys as the UX is just not good.
But what is the solution here does anyone know how to make this good?
LCRVYSB
What's annoying about passkeys (and not talked about enough, including in this article) is that passkeys seem to be a boon for the targeted-advertising industrial complex.
Since passkeys are tied to verified devices, they guarantee absolute de-anonymization -- and further spread that advertising "wealth" by seamlessly linking across devices, and therefore to their respective corporate stakeholders (i.e. via bluetooth to conveniently login on a laptop via a phone-domiciled passkey).
Username + password at least requires circumstantial marketing analysis to "verify" whether a user is who marketers think they are. But with passkeys, your login confirms your Windows account ID, cell phone MAC address, home address, what have you.
jeffrusiewicz
I truly believe pass keys are a way for yo to eventually lose access, or give someone or something else, access to your logins.
TheRealPomax
Anything that's tied to hardware is one accident away from locking you out forever unless you set of "2 of 3" or some other "let's make life even worse when it comes to authentication" solution.
micromacrofoot
Passkeys are a trap in that they're a fairly confusing implementation that ends up tying you to a specific device or device ecosystem.
tennysont
"Is not a trap" does not follow from "Is currently good".
A defining feature of traps is that they start out good.
There are a lot of good points in this article, but it fundamentally missed the point of the word trap. The most it said on that topic is:
> If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that? Besides, the guidance for consumer sites has been to not even request attestation for years now.
Which is a statement about the near future. There is room for a conversation about the long term, but this article is not a part of that conversation.
1010m
Thank you for posting on this. The last post on passkeys was utterly confusing and I have been thinking about this until yesterday. I had done some research for a client and had referenced your blog. This whole FIDO2 cryptography-based passkeys system is confusing even to a technical person, let alone convincing the general audience. After bringing together all the different types of passkeys, I had categorized them into three main categories:
1> Synced Software Passkeys (e.g., Google Password Manager, Apple iCloud Keychain): Encrypted locally but synchronized across a cloud account.
2> Device-Bound Software Passkeys (e.g., Microsoft Authenticator app on a phone): Only inside the physical device's secure hardware chip.
3> Device-Bound Hardware Passkeys (e.g., YubiKey, RSA iShield Key): Permanently burned into a dedicated physical USB/NFC chip.
I advocate for "Device-Bound Hardware Passkeys," but not many websites support them. Keeping a duplicate hardware passkey is important in case the original hardware key is lost.
zaptheimpaler
These guys are so dedicated to protecting us from ourselves that they won’t provide any mechanism to export passkeys and port them between devices because it might be used for phishing. It’s just fucking annoying and presumptuous. No im not going to fall for phishing, i need to have some escape hatch to get the data.
Attestation lock down is also ALREADY a real thing. Microsoft sites (and others) frequently require you to use their bespoke 2FA app instead of using the open TOTP protocol. They will do the same thing when it comes to deciding which devices and software are allowed to login, and everything outside the corporate slop safety bubble will be denied.
MisterMunchkin
I absolutely love them now that I have a Mac. They're shared between my phone and my Mac automatically so I can just sign in to anything with my fingerprint.
Passwords just suck. If we're all going to use password managers anyway, what is the point? Might as well use a randomly generated passkey.
snapplebobapple
Thats what a trap would say...
RandomGerm4n
"A passkey is bound to the domain it was created for, so your browser simply won't use your example.com passkey on examp1e.com."
What happens if a service you use loses its domain? For example, if I run a marxist online forum, it could happen at any time that the US regime sanctions my site and seizes my domain. Would my comrades still be able to log in with their passkeys?
roosterIllusi0n
"AAGUIDs are unique identifiers assigned to FIDO authenticators (including passkeys and security keys) and are used to identify authenticator models for attestation and metadata purposes."
If there is any unique id that can track you, then it's a trap. No security system should be leaking unique ids that can be used to track users.
show comments
Telaneo
If it looks like a duck...
unrented7977
When a website forces a passkey into my password manager without even asking me (fucking Amazon), it is pretty unambiguously something that is not good for me.
QED, a trap.
ForHackernews
This author is astoundingly trusting.
> If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that?
Any of them? All of them?
"Starting next year, only Google Authenticator and Google Chome passkeys will be valid for gmail logins. Help us keep your account safe by limiting access so ONLY YOU can read your emails"
"Good news! Your Instagram account is getting safer from hackers and spammers. As of next month, you'll use your Meta Metaverse token for all logins to Instagram, Facebook, Theads and WhatsApp"
Google already forced OAuth2 on Thunderbird [0] and the rest of the email-client universe.
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
"Model of the authenticator" could say almost everything about these if the model was let's say "Google Pixel 10". TEE would refuse to sign the attestation if the bootloader was unlocked / AVB didn't verify.
YubiKey attestation is not a problem because the device doesn't work against me in such a way it would require installing custom software on it. And even if YubiKey went crazy, they're not a monopoly.
Situation with smartphones is very much different..
bemtevi
I hate passkeys because they're always tied to a specific account or a device like a phone. I hate being dependent on phones/devices. That being said I know they solve a lot of problems so....
I still prefer a good password written down in a paper book, with multiple methods of 2FA. But I know there are attack vectors for that.
show comments
VCFundedGenYer
Passkeys are confusing, fragmented, awkward, and annoyingly implemented. They aren't a trap, but they are far less efficient and less proven than a password and app-based MFA.
ThrowawayTestr
They're better than passwords but just as annoying when I have to sign into Outlook every 5 days
dvh
It's like with iso 8601.
- we support iso 8601
- really?! Like P1Y2M3DT4H5M6S?
- err, no, I mean 2026-12-31
jonathanstrange
I don't like them, they offer no advantages to logins with random passwords. They would only be more secure if they were forced to be stored on hardware devices like Yubikeys, which almost never happens in practice. In reality it's true that they can be dangerous because they can be set up in a way that doesn't allow storing them in software and using them on multiple devices, and such device-bound passkeys will eventually lock you out or be reset in the same way as password+login (usually just by email).
The standard and implementations are also unnecessarily complex and obtuse. IMHO passkeys are not a good technology.
shadowgovt
At the end of the day, I just don't really want them. I already have passwords and I already have to put up with 2FA. Passkeys are just one more damn thing to understand in an ecosystem I already want to spend as little time in as possible.
tamimio
>here’s why you should use XYZ!!
Few weeks later
>let me tell you why you should NOT use XYZ!!
Classic HN.
That being said, password and 2FA is the best combo, where you control the token of the 2FA and it’s on a separate app/platform/etc than where you have your passwords.
blackcatsec
Thankfully someone with some sense. I saw that post title and didn't even bother to read it. It sounded like someone having argued with me a decade ago that IPv6 is a mechanism for the government to track you because you have no more privacy anymore because you don't have NAT...
show comments
mixdup
100% correct takedown of the "Trap" article
Do passkeys have issues? Sure. Most of them are UX and are being worked on. As a user, I 1000% immediately register a passkey when a site or app offers it as at least on iOS and macOS, it is a superior user experience IMO and more secure. I never worry if I'm getting prompted for a Passkey, am I on the right site?
Also the remote connect functionality of modern browsers and mobile operating systems makes it trival if I need or want to sign into a personal account on my work PC where my personal passwords are not sync'd. Need to get into my personal GMail in an incognito window at work? No problem at all.
Anti-Passkey folks are just people who want to be against something to be against it
I don't know enough to argue about whether passkeys are a trap or not, but I do know as a user that they appear to be a confusing mess.
When a website prompts me to set up a passkey, depending on the device I happen to be using at the time it could end up going to Google password manager, Samsung password manager, iCloud Keychain, or Windows somethingorother.
What happens when I go to the same site on a different platform? What if I can't use cross-device authentication because I'm on a locked-down work machine or one that simply doesn't have bluetooth? What if I want to consolidate them all in one platform just for the sake of being organised? What if I lose or simply don't have the device with a certain passkey near me?
I don't have the time or patience to work out any of that, which might absolutely be a 'me' problem, but TOTPs are pretty sodding frictionless in comparison. Scan QR in my chosen manager; type number into website; done. Why are passkeys better?
"...if attestation is the thing you're worried about, the post's own recommendation pushes you towards attestation rather than away from it!"
It is plainly obvious that the worry isn't attestation per se, it's the restrictions that attestation may in the future require when they turn the dial on restrictiveness up, that was extremely clear to me from reading the first article. If you can get attestation without those restrictions, "sure, why not", and a Yubikey seems like a way to do that which could avoid those restrictions. Most of this article makes sense, but this particular line makes me wonder how the author got it so far off the mark.
They also did nothing to quell my fears that they will in the future use passkeys to prevent people from using software they can modify themselves by saying "...the guidance for consumer sites has been to not even request attestation for years now." as if everyone always followed the guidance, and as if there aren't tens of thousands of managers that think their case is special and they really do need the extra control because they're a bank or handle copyrighted content or have PII or PCI and feel extra risk-averse today.
I don't know if they failed to do so because they can't (and this is a valid fear of the original author) or if they just are bad at reading the room at what the concern is and vastly overestimate how much people trust companies to always have their best interests at heart.
What I am getting from this, though, is "If you authenticate with a yubikey then that's attested, so they can't use attestation through passkeys to make sure your OS and browser aren't modified", and I'm not sure if that's the correct take away or even a correct statement.
This blog post is the perfect example of someone rationalizing away the bigger picture.
It's true that passkeys do not require hardware and OS attestation today, so all of the specific examples you cite are true. But the point remains that that passkeys can be EASILY extended to require hardware and OS attestation, and this will happen.
Banks have already done this. Before using an app was optional. Play protect was optional. It's like my uncle ted used to say, techonolgy is not optional.
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Am I missing something? "Attestation tells websites what the authenticator is but it doesn't tell the website what the authenticator is".
The entire argument in this blogpost amounts to "nobody would ever turn on passkey attestation because it would require migration of people who already setup passkeys" which is a questionable argument- you could trivially imagine allowing unattested passkeys for existing users, but require it for new users. Most websites don't yet support passkeys to begin with, so this argument doesn't hold for the majority of websites.
The "biggest providers" bit at the end is odd too because the biggest providers are apple/google- who, as far as I know, do support attestation.
Do not handover your identity, or verification of it (as the current case is) to anyone else, irrespective of the benefits, including the security aspect.
---
The author has strong incentives for the success of passkeys.
1. Scott Helme is founder and CEO of Report URI, and Companies House records his ownership at over 25% and up to 50%. Report URI markets a "Passkeys Protection" offering, giving him a commercial interest in services for passkey adopters.
2. His WhyNoPasskeys.com campaign pushes websites to adopt passkeys, is sponsored by Report URI, and promotes its passkey protection services. The "Passkeys Are Not a Trap" article also carries a Report URI sponsor banner.
3. Troy Hunt, Helme’s Report URI business partner and investor, joined 1Password’s advisory board in 2020; Helme has also appeared in Hunt’s 1Password-sponsored content. That establishes an indirect vendor connection.
"Password manager you trust..."
Not so easy.
I've worked at places where we use a password manager to manage lots of passwords for random services that we subscribe to. The engineering manager always says "you can put your own passwords in for free" and I say "no thanks, they're going to get hacked" and then six months later... they get hacked.
I use the password manager on my iPhone because it seems pretty secure and it is so miserable to type passwords in on a phone but my other solution for passwords has used cryptographic generation with the database playing only a secondary role and it is fine for passwords but does nothing for passkeys.
The author is really missing the forest for the trees here
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
So if I was Netflix or a bank or w/ever I'd only allow new registrations from "trusted" authenticators, which would incidentally only run on iOS and play-protected Android.
> [Attestation] say nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Largely false. The Pixel verifies the OS and will reveal `verifiedBootState != Verified` on GrapheneOS in the attested passkey at registration, which websites may choose to reject. Apple Silicon has an undocumented SEP which prevents Asahi Linux from accessing it. There may be other examples now or in the future.
Also, I think you can deduce the device color from [1] on Android.
So, in conclusion: https://storage.ghost.io/c/ee/88/ee889f88-37ef-43e5-9180-f9b...
[1] https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/keystore/a...
So: currently, the cauldron is cold, therefore ignore the fire below it and hop right in.
As far as I've read here before, device attestation is definitely there, it's just not being used (one of the big tech namely Apple is balking... maybe they have their own means or plans in their ecosystem).
My main reason for not using it is I'm not interested participating in a scheme where I do not own/access the private keys and being able to use them and store them the way I want to.
I'm fine with TOTP and sure, I understand it's not phishing resistant by itself.
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
Practical experience from Austria where attestation is used to limit which hardware tokens can be used for the EU digital identity: it sucks. You're limited to a very limited number of keys: https://www.id-austria.gv.at/de/hilfe/hilfe-zu-ida/authentif...
Now: will more people do this? I don't know. But I fault the standard for enabling it in the first place.
I think the passkey standard included attestation for good reasons, but it is obviously also possibly a trap in the sense that I'm sure there were some people on the standards committee(s) envisioning a glorious world where they can flip this on for everyone and instantly all the bad stuff stops.
I have to admit I don't worry too much about the entire internet flicking attestation=true anytime though, because the resulting support nightmare would be ferociously expensive. I wouldn't be surprised that, on its own, it would be more expensive than the cases that the companies flipping the switch are trying to avoid. Which means it isn't going to happen.
The simple truth is metaphorical-Grandma can't handle the degree of responsibility put on the user that strict hardware attestation implies. Netflix et al are more likely to want metaphorical-Grandma's money more than an incremental improvement in their ability to be sure it's an attested login, and won't want metaphorical-Grandma to call Netflix every other week trying to figure out how to log in again. There is no way around the fact that strict attestation implies more user responsibility to make sure they don't lose their token, and at scale, they absolutely will. Work environments can get away with this because work environments have a scalable mechanism to re-verify identity to the extent the business cares about it personally, and reissue tokens. At scale the big companies do not have this for individuals. You can't use hardware attestation without this infrastructure for reverification, and any infrastructure for reverification a large corporation tries to create will have exploitable holes in it.
I still don't use passkeys because I don't know what advantage it has over my existing method of generating random passwords in my passport manager and using that. My password manager generally autofills it anyway.
I know where my password manager syncs, it's on all my devices. Passkey prompts always seem confusing, I don't know if it's going to save to my browser, or my OS, or if those are gonna sync on what devices. It's just more confusing.
What would I gain from using a passkey?
> If you want to be able to move your credentials around, pick a provider that supports that
The fact that passkeys are not required to be portable is the entire trap
Recent and related:
Passkeys are a trap - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50048312 - Oct 2026 (571 comments)
Ricky Mondello responds to "Passkeys are a trap. Do not use them." - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50061290 - Oct 2026 (14 comments)
I don't use passkeys but the thing that raised a red flag for me while reading the article that the OP is responding to is the "non-copyable" property. It's not possible to prohibit delegation[0], so the idea that a key can only be used on one specific device necessarily involves a form of DRM/wishful thinking.
[0] http://www.erights.org/elib/capability/delegations.html
Look, at best, Passkeys shift your logins from your head to OS-supplied keychain management. Whether they do attestation today or not, they big, industry-wide effort to move away from "what you know" (i.e. username/password) + "what you have" (2FA) towards "platform-authenticates-you-to-website automatically" has both security benefits and lock-in risks.
Maybe it was too strong to say the were a "trap", but it is also too strong to say there is no worries here.
I actually spoke up about this at a local chamber meeting today during my 30 second elevator pitch. I decided to give a brief cybersecurity awareness month pitch about having backups for your 2FA and to be wary of passkeys because you will be locked out on device changes.
I think they are a trap. A usability nightmare. So, I acquiesce to a passkey to a site while on my iPhone and now I cannot log onto it from my work desktop in Firefox. An older person sets it up on his or her Google account, gets a new phone (iPhone to Android) or Android to iPhone doesn't matter and loses access. We know that Google won't help a regular consumer with anything.
Syncing may be a thing in theory but the friction is huge.
I recently had the displeasure of using Passkeys:
- trying to sign in to Okta on my personal Linux desktop computer. It has bluetooth and I had my phone right next to me, also with bluetooth turned on. But Firefox simply refuses to even show the option for "connect to your phone" or to give a QR code... it just said "tap your security key or biometric device". I had neither; my passkey is on my phone. Then it timed out and I gave up trying to log in.
- trying to sign in on my work Macbook using Google Chrome (enterprise managed one). For some reason, upon scanning the QR code, my phone was stuck on "Connecting..." and timed out. I had bluetooth turned on on both devices, they were five centimeters apart, both were connected to internet with a great gigabit connection. It turns out, I had to quit and restart Chrome and it magically started working.
- trying to sign in on my work desktop using a physical Yubikey remotely using VNC. It's not possible by design. I had to get my coworker to press my Yubikey in the office.
- trying to get Muse and OpenAI Dot to sign in using a passkey. It's not possible by design.
Generally, the user experience is really horrible with passkeys. It is also ironic that it trusts my phone (used for shitposting; easily lost or stolen) instantly, but simply refuses to trust my personal Linux desktop computer, which is fully encrypted, securely stored in my house, and contains all my life's work and everything that is dear to me.
Counterexample: the swisspass. It's a private service from the swisspost, and they whitelist webauthn providers. For example, you can't use bitwarden https://community.bitwarden.com/t/follow-up-on-bitwarden-pas... So the danger is there today, not in the future, since I'm already cut out today from the service, unless I use some hack
What I'd like to understand is why the majority of sites that allegedly supoprt passkeys do not let me store them on Yubikey hardware but instead are pushing into "cloud" passkeys. That's what is triggering my spidey sense about the whole scheme. If they are so great all around and vendor neutral why is everyone pushing me to store my keys in some "cloud" password manager? If I'm going to the trouble of setting up passkeys I want to be in control of them across all my accounts. That means my own hardware dongle. Not some cloud vendor's pinky swear that they'll take care of them and let me use them on my terms.
Let us consider the average user. The one who manages to lose their iPhone and has no idea what their iCloud account login is because they were aware of having to log into it once when they created the account at phone purchase 3 years previously.
That's where the trap is.
I'm a happy user of 1Password myself, but warning that they only allow export of passkeys through a specific protocol, and it has to be done on the mobile app. [0]
[0]: https://support.1password.com/export/?ios
Let’s assume passkeys are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Passkeys face the same problem as the USB-C rollout. Lots of different incompatible implementations and standards rolled under one name that are almost impossible to distinguish between. Very little education on how to use it and be prepared for it.
The difference is that the consequences of getting passkeys wrong for the user is significantly greater than getting the wrong cable, and while the latter can easily be fixed, the former may be irreversible.
I'm not an expert, but it's frustrating to read these threads about passkeys. The common objection I see here is "But if I lose my device I'm locked out!"
A lost passkey should be treated the same as a lost password.
Sites that implement passkeys need to have an account recovery mechanism. Granted, not every site does this correctly. Don't use passkeys on sites that don't have a recovery mechanism!
Secondly, the site you're authenticating to must allow you to have multiple passkeys. You either have a cloud-synced password manager so that all of your devices get the same passkey, or you have a passkey per device that you use to access the site. Again, not every site allows multiple passkeys. Don't use passkeys on sites that don't allow you to have multiple passkeys.
For a site implements both of these properties correctly, if you lose your device, you just connect to the site with your new device, perform whatever account recovery procedure (TOTP, email verification, phone verification, ...), create a new passkey, and, ideally, disable the passkey from your lost device.
Passkeys are such a flaming disaster from a UX standpoint. I can't recommend anyone use them.
I don't find this post convincing.
> If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that? Besides, the guidance for consumer sites has been to not even request attestation for years now.
This isn't a rebuttal to the claim that they're a hidden dial. It's just saying that it's too early to crank the dial.
>Attestation Isn't What You Think It Is
>The post describes attestation as proving "that an approved passkey manager, operating system, and firmware are in use" which is simply not true.
>When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
This point is bypassed by websites only supporting specific authenticators and then those specific authenticators only supporting specific devices/OSs/browsers/etc via other attestation frameworks.
Passkeys can be tied to a root of trust, like those owned by google, microsoft, apple.
Currently they aren't tied to that root of trust.
Most of those organizations have shown that they don't want people owning their own devices or being able to run their own software, and they use developer attestations, IE a revocable programming license to accomplish that.
Tools like android's safetynet makes it so that you can't run banking apps on a phone running your own software. One that bypasses developer attestations.
Passkeys are currently an open standard, but attestation is built in such a way as that it could be only usable on n approved operating system with programmer licenses.
Big websites like amazon, or websites you need to exist in society, could gradually start requiring the usage of attested passkeys.
---
There is a clear path from passkeys to the death of general purpose computing for 99% of people. Don't be a useful idiot, don't assume these corporations have your best interest in heart. See this for what it is, a path towards killing people's ability to run unlicensed software on their own devices.
I have seen an exception to this with Microsoft Entra. I was not able to store and use the passkey in my password manager of choice, I had to save it in Microsoft Authenticator. I haven't tried again lately since that was for a previous job, and I didn't look into the underlying reason it failed, whether it was attestation of some sort or something else about how they set it up.
I'm generally pro-passkeys, but also acknowledge they are a hot mess for the average non-techy consumer. And there does seem to be room for the screws to tighten, and we definitely need to resist that.
The counter-argument he makes against people's concerns about attestation is laughable, all he says is that it hasn't happened yet.
Passkeys are not designed just for security, there are other corporate interests involved. It's impossible to share logins for example. He even mentioned this concern and didn't address it.
The device/app lockdowns are already real for TOTP - Microsoft and others insist on using their snowflake authenticator instead of using the standard protocol. So it's not unlikely that they will extend that kind of lock-in to all passkeys.
They don't solve a problem I have. So I am not eager to adapt them
I find the following has the right combination of mental model and security for me:
1. A password manager that generates my passwords stored on an external USB key (which is itself encrypted). I use KeepPassXC.
2. More than one Yubikey doing U2F.
I know how to backup #1 and I have more than one of #2 to handle losing a Yubikey. #2 gives me phishing protection.
I have to say the messaging around passkeys is bad. So many providers show modals with big friendly lock logos superimposed on a smartphone to announce the change without offering any explanation about why the change is happening, why the change is happening now, or how the technology works.
I don't know when it started, I don't know who is to blame, but we've definitely arrived at a conceptualization of "the user" that is passive, uncurious, and incapable of being talked to like an adult.
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up.
Me: The person who posted this post critical of The King on Facebook was totally not me!
Police: Here's "a WebAuthn attestation" that told Facebook "the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up" and it fits Evidence A.
No thanks.
Last time I tried using Firefox on Linux with Keepass's passkey implementation it worked on the test page and a couple other sites but Facebook refused to add it, so I definitely believe that e.g. banks and various other important sites won't balk at restricting passkeys to Android, iOS/MacOS, and Windows. I am curious what other people's practical experience is with these kinds of sites.
I've set up a few passkeys to see what it's like and the experience is wildly different between sites.
State Farm is the only place I've actually liked it. I don't have to type ANYTHING in.
Open browser, open password manager, click the "sign in with existing passkey", browser and password manager talk, prompt me to confirm the passkey choice, and I'm in.
Most sites I've messed with insist on you entering a username first.
Trap or not I don't want them and the UX is shit and user-hostile.
For me, randomly generated passwords(via proton pass) combined with remembering to check the URL stops phishing and is easier to share.
If they are not a trap, then the standard should be amended to allow third party implementations to forge attestations.
Otherwise, it is a trap. The story of the last 25 years of the internet is user hostile ratcheting away of the open web. Passkeys are obviously another step in the process.
I don't want passkeys. I want to stop being bothered with setting up passkeys, especially if I already have 2FA setup, and definitely if I already have a hardware fido key on the account.
Some context I think is missing: TFA's author claims to use passkeys for 2FA (and so, not as a password replacement as I think is often implicitly assumed in discussion):
> This one can be tricky because I've seen many sites using passkeys to replace passwords, but that's not something we've done on Report URI, passkeys are used as a 2FA mechanism.
Source: https://scotthelme.co.uk/xss-is-deadly-for-passkeys-the-hidd...
I use ProtonPass on every device I own (religiously) and have never had an issue. But it's because I'm very careful to only deal with any credential ever via ProtonPass.
I can imagine it gets annoying very fast if you accidentally put a passkey in the wrong place, ie because Chrome proposes it's own credentials store.
ProtonPass also lets me export the private parts so I'm not stuck as with some passkey managers.
Passkeys are great but require you to understand some things about them, and you need discipline in dealing with them.
Every point in that post has been discussed at length other places, some of which is in the HN thread the author mentions. And the discussions make it clear that the points being made are not seeing the problem - not that there isn't a problem.
Passkeys have benefits - but they also have problems. Many people just don't think the benefits are worth the problems. And many people are afraid that sites will just stop accepting passwords in favor of passkeys, leaving people worse off.
Almost every complaint I see about passkeys seems to be based on behavior and configurations I just do not see in the real world.
“Once I set up a passkey I can’t log in from another device” - have never seen this to be the case. Existing password / OTP codes have always worked as a fallback if syncing somehow breaks.
“I don’t want to trust Apple/MS/Google with my logins” - so don’t. Use bitwarden or 1Password or lastpass or whatever you want to store your passkeys.
“If I lose my phone I’m screwed” - see #1 and enable sync maybe?
Boils down to I believe a lot of folks looked at passkey implementation at a high level, saw some potential pitfalls, and never actually used them to discover those pitfalls have all been accounted for.
Go ahead and skip passkeys if you want, but stop preaching about evils that don’t exist.
Passkeys are great for developers who are into cryptography and security, and who understand the idea and implementation behind it. For the rest of us it's something to avoid.
I don't use passkeys anywhere for fear of losing access. I just don't care enough to study how it really works. With passwords, I occasionally print out all my important passwords and store them in a safe and I know there's no way I could lose access.
I put a reply to this article in the comment section of "Passkeys are a trap. Do not use them."
https://nonfunctional.substack.com/p/passkeys-are-a-trap-do-...
I'm moving my HSA because the company moved to passkeys.
I use unique email addresses and passwords, stored only on my devices(Linux, Windows, Android) using open source software (KeepassXC, KeepassDX). Passkeys add new friction I don't need.
The og article talks about future concerns even though things are fine today. This article claims things are fine today.
True, but doesn’t actually refute the original.
I introduced Passkeys in my company.
Every single IT person thought it would be an extreme mess, too complicated for regular users. In my company we work on the (gas) grid so lot's of blue collar types.
We went there, gave the pilot group a Yubikey and said: This is like the company pass you already have. Without the company pass you cannot enter any buildings. Without the Passkey you cannot enter a computer or app.
If you lose it report to the same people (service desk).
The response has been EXTREMELY POSITIVE. People fucking LOVE getting rid of passwords, password requirements and taking off their gloves to enter it every time.
We are now rolling it out to everyone and next year when we stop our silly "phishing game" contract we will actually save money while reducing a massive cyber security risk for our company: (voice) phishing.
As a user if you push something too hard I immediately think what the angle is. That is how i feel about passkeys.
Lot's of additional great information for consumers and prosumers at whatarepasskeys.info. Many of the questions that are constantly discussed in these comments are answered in the FAQ and content.
Contributions and feedback are welcome! GitHub link is at the bottom of the page.
Saying "attestation can't hurt you, your password manager returns `none` today so it's not a concern" is avoiding the entire point of the original article which was that that can change at any time! I'm already seeing in a corporate context, IT departments forcing hardware attestation as required everywhere. Justifiable, but also clear evidence that it's no longer in your control as the person authenticating. That's the point, passkeys are marginally more secure for you, while handing huge amounts of control to centralized platforms.
domain binding requires browser participation.
you can have a TOTP variant which has the browser display a challenge string & QR code, authenticator generates a 5-6 digit response. include more entropy in the response if you want to do away with the password entirely.
passkeys are trash, I would never opt for dedicated hardware (or a cloud service) and using them with a password manager is extremely messy when you want the password manager to be properly isolated from the rest of your system.
I think it's a bad sign when someone immediately resorts to strawmen and argument from incredulity in their counter-argument:
>If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that?
The original didn't argue that, nor has absolutely anyone else concerned, nor has that been what has happened in historical examples people were concerned about. Because yeah of course that's ridiculous, it's "boiling a frog" by throwing it in already boiling water, that's not how it works. If anyone has freedom-reducing longer term plans for use of passkey attestation, the emphasis is on "longer term", being malicious doesn't mean being stupid. Step 1 is obviously getting people into the passkey ecosystem and out of passwords at all, which could well take years. And importantly as much as possible into closed passkey ecosystems. This is indeed one of the initial danger signs, because the author:
>iCloud Keychain, Google Password Manager, 1Password, Bitwarden
Is mixing together things that aren't like the other. Quick author, what's the EXPORT story for each of these ecosystems? Of those, Bitwarden can export a passkey into a plain JSON if you want. Do the others support that too, or at best only "app to app" encrypted transfer, creating a closed ecosystem? Already, can I get passkeys from iCloud/Google/1Pass into KeePass? Or is this restricted """for my protection :^)"""?
Author doesn't even touch on the lock-in that's already beginning. And right now everyone can technically claim "oh no of course you're not locked in! You just have to use an official option, or you can merely visit hundreds of sites individually and register new passkeys in all of them". Is it hard to see how players like Bitwarden would be pressured on continuing to offer plain export?
Then when most of the population is using passkeys everywhere in a closed ecosystem, now what is the response if friction slowly starts getting added. OK, you can still use what you like, but only export to other approved players. OK, you can still use unattested, but it's off by default now, "advanced users" can go enable it with this checkbox in the settings. OK, manual is still an option, but now it's buried deep and behind dark patterns and requires a text command. Hi everyone, we have statistics to show that only 0.85% of our users still use unattested keys. The support burden and security risk is now too high."
Like, we've seen this movie before.
Not sure if this mentioned, but I setup a new Gmail account and it wouldn't let me add my yubikey for MFA. I could only add a passkey to my yubikey for MFA.
Wouldn't web browsers themselves be the ultimate passkey managers like they already do with passwords? They'd need a way to export the passkeys to another passkey manager though.
Biometrics is my main concern around this, and in that the government can compel you to provide them for device unlock, unlike a pin or password.
Until we change our laws in the US on this front, I will continue to use passwords and hardware keys separate from my phone box.
I figured they weren't. People smarter than me made them.
I think they've been implemented well in some cases. I think they've been implemented poorly in others.
So it goes.
I mean the desire to trap seems to be among the big corporations already.
I keep seeing major players promoting their own apps over standard TOTP, which I guess could be seen as a sort of proprietary passkey. Shopify, Google, Microsoft, and more, they all want you to download their app for MFA, instead of using a very open format.
As someone who works in IT, I just can't even imagine myself doing this. I have probably around 60 codes in my Aegis, how would it look if I had just a quarter of those in apps instead?
But the main issue I have with passkeys is the simple issue of backups. I can backup my Aegis keys, I can't backup an app, or a hw passkey. I have to get a second one, and keep signing for it or something, not sure of the details, I just know it would be a major hassle. And there is no way I'm trusting a little usb device to not break.
Right now I see no compelling reason to switch from regular OTP codes, change my mind.
I was expecting the author to at least address the thinly veiled threat to blacklist KeePassXC at [0] (via the very same mechanism they claim is harmless), but of course it's not even mentioned.
I'm sorry, but if your system allows someone to make a credible threat like this, you should make sure to redesign your protocol so that kind of abuse is not possible BEFORE advocating for it. I'm so incredibly sick of people repeating history, only to disappear once we're all roped into yet another anti-user scheme.
And yes, passkeys absolutely ARE a trap.
[0]: https://github.com/keepassxreboot/keepassxc/issues/10407#iss...
I try to avoid passkeys as the UX is just not good.
But what is the solution here does anyone know how to make this good?
What's annoying about passkeys (and not talked about enough, including in this article) is that passkeys seem to be a boon for the targeted-advertising industrial complex.
Since passkeys are tied to verified devices, they guarantee absolute de-anonymization -- and further spread that advertising "wealth" by seamlessly linking across devices, and therefore to their respective corporate stakeholders (i.e. via bluetooth to conveniently login on a laptop via a phone-domiciled passkey).
Username + password at least requires circumstantial marketing analysis to "verify" whether a user is who marketers think they are. But with passkeys, your login confirms your Windows account ID, cell phone MAC address, home address, what have you.
I truly believe pass keys are a way for yo to eventually lose access, or give someone or something else, access to your logins.
Anything that's tied to hardware is one accident away from locking you out forever unless you set of "2 of 3" or some other "let's make life even worse when it comes to authentication" solution.
Passkeys are a trap in that they're a fairly confusing implementation that ends up tying you to a specific device or device ecosystem.
"Is not a trap" does not follow from "Is currently good".
A defining feature of traps is that they start out good.
There are a lot of good points in this article, but it fundamentally missed the point of the word trap. The most it said on that topic is:
Which is a statement about the near future. There is room for a conversation about the long term, but this article is not a part of that conversation.Thank you for posting on this. The last post on passkeys was utterly confusing and I have been thinking about this until yesterday. I had done some research for a client and had referenced your blog. This whole FIDO2 cryptography-based passkeys system is confusing even to a technical person, let alone convincing the general audience. After bringing together all the different types of passkeys, I had categorized them into three main categories:
1> Synced Software Passkeys (e.g., Google Password Manager, Apple iCloud Keychain): Encrypted locally but synchronized across a cloud account.
2> Device-Bound Software Passkeys (e.g., Microsoft Authenticator app on a phone): Only inside the physical device's secure hardware chip.
3> Device-Bound Hardware Passkeys (e.g., YubiKey, RSA iShield Key): Permanently burned into a dedicated physical USB/NFC chip.
I advocate for "Device-Bound Hardware Passkeys," but not many websites support them. Keeping a duplicate hardware passkey is important in case the original hardware key is lost.
These guys are so dedicated to protecting us from ourselves that they won’t provide any mechanism to export passkeys and port them between devices because it might be used for phishing. It’s just fucking annoying and presumptuous. No im not going to fall for phishing, i need to have some escape hatch to get the data.
Attestation lock down is also ALREADY a real thing. Microsoft sites (and others) frequently require you to use their bespoke 2FA app instead of using the open TOTP protocol. They will do the same thing when it comes to deciding which devices and software are allowed to login, and everything outside the corporate slop safety bubble will be denied.
I absolutely love them now that I have a Mac. They're shared between my phone and my Mac automatically so I can just sign in to anything with my fingerprint.
Passwords just suck. If we're all going to use password managers anyway, what is the point? Might as well use a randomly generated passkey.
Thats what a trap would say...
"A passkey is bound to the domain it was created for, so your browser simply won't use your example.com passkey on examp1e.com." What happens if a service you use loses its domain? For example, if I run a marxist online forum, it could happen at any time that the US regime sanctions my site and seizes my domain. Would my comrades still be able to log in with their passkeys?
"AAGUIDs are unique identifiers assigned to FIDO authenticators (including passkeys and security keys) and are used to identify authenticator models for attestation and metadata purposes."
If there is any unique id that can track you, then it's a trap. No security system should be leaking unique ids that can be used to track users.
If it looks like a duck...
When a website forces a passkey into my password manager without even asking me (fucking Amazon), it is pretty unambiguously something that is not good for me.
QED, a trap.
This author is astoundingly trusting.
> If a consumer website decided tomorrow that it would only accept attested passkeys, it would lock out almost all of its own users, instantly. What website is going to do that?
Any of them? All of them?
"Starting next year, only Google Authenticator and Google Chome passkeys will be valid for gmail logins. Help us keep your account safe by limiting access so ONLY YOU can read your emails"
"Good news! Your Instagram account is getting safer from hackers and spammers. As of next month, you'll use your Meta Metaverse token for all logins to Instagram, Facebook, Theads and WhatsApp"
Google already forced OAuth2 on Thunderbird [0] and the rest of the email-client universe.
[0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/automatic-conversion-go...
> When it is present, WebAuthn attestation tells the site the make and model of the authenticator, identified by its AAGUID, with a certificate chain from the vendor to back it up. It says nothing about your OS, your browser, your extensions, whether your phone is rooted or jailbroken, your firmware version, or even what colour it is.
"Model of the authenticator" could say almost everything about these if the model was let's say "Google Pixel 10". TEE would refuse to sign the attestation if the bootloader was unlocked / AVB didn't verify.
YubiKey attestation is not a problem because the device doesn't work against me in such a way it would require installing custom software on it. And even if YubiKey went crazy, they're not a monopoly.
Situation with smartphones is very much different..
I hate passkeys because they're always tied to a specific account or a device like a phone. I hate being dependent on phones/devices. That being said I know they solve a lot of problems so....
I still prefer a good password written down in a paper book, with multiple methods of 2FA. But I know there are attack vectors for that.
Passkeys are confusing, fragmented, awkward, and annoyingly implemented. They aren't a trap, but they are far less efficient and less proven than a password and app-based MFA.
They're better than passwords but just as annoying when I have to sign into Outlook every 5 days
It's like with iso 8601.
- we support iso 8601
- really?! Like P1Y2M3DT4H5M6S?
- err, no, I mean 2026-12-31
I don't like them, they offer no advantages to logins with random passwords. They would only be more secure if they were forced to be stored on hardware devices like Yubikeys, which almost never happens in practice. In reality it's true that they can be dangerous because they can be set up in a way that doesn't allow storing them in software and using them on multiple devices, and such device-bound passkeys will eventually lock you out or be reset in the same way as password+login (usually just by email).
The standard and implementations are also unnecessarily complex and obtuse. IMHO passkeys are not a good technology.
At the end of the day, I just don't really want them. I already have passwords and I already have to put up with 2FA. Passkeys are just one more damn thing to understand in an ecosystem I already want to spend as little time in as possible.
>here’s why you should use XYZ!!
Few weeks later
>let me tell you why you should NOT use XYZ!!
Classic HN.
That being said, password and 2FA is the best combo, where you control the token of the 2FA and it’s on a separate app/platform/etc than where you have your passwords.
Thankfully someone with some sense. I saw that post title and didn't even bother to read it. It sounded like someone having argued with me a decade ago that IPv6 is a mechanism for the government to track you because you have no more privacy anymore because you don't have NAT...
100% correct takedown of the "Trap" article
Do passkeys have issues? Sure. Most of them are UX and are being worked on. As a user, I 1000% immediately register a passkey when a site or app offers it as at least on iOS and macOS, it is a superior user experience IMO and more secure. I never worry if I'm getting prompted for a Passkey, am I on the right site?
Also the remote connect functionality of modern browsers and mobile operating systems makes it trival if I need or want to sign into a personal account on my work PC where my personal passwords are not sync'd. Need to get into my personal GMail in an incognito window at work? No problem at all.
Anti-Passkey folks are just people who want to be against something to be against it