The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
show comments
usr1106
Unless it has changed recently Germany has no general database of biometric data. Of course law enforcement has for the cases they work on, but for the average passport holder the data gets destroyed once the passport has been accepted by the citizen. So it remains only decentralized in passport chips.
It's probably an exception in EU.
Vinnl
It's not clear to me if this would allow access to all biometric data, or "just" to that of people crossing the US border?
And for the latter, what data are we talking about? If it's mostly fingerprints, don't those already get collected upon crossing the border? And can't they already be read from a passport's chip?
show comments
speak_plainly
This is a good thing for travellers.
In border security there are generally two camps, one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks, and generally makes travelling easy for the average person, and the other is like traditional cops using traditional tactics… the kind that will miss the person smuggling a kilogram of cocaine in their suitcase but will go after the old man who didn’t declare a pair of socks he bought on a trip. They generally make travel awful.
Support the intelligence-driven side of border security and reject the traditional cop camp.
show comments
cm2187
I fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.
show comments
angry_octet
It shouldn't be possible for the US to request this data without the passport being physically present at a US entry facility (border, airport checkin scan, consulate) where fingerprints/photos are actually compared.
Before that point, only passport information tuples should be queryable, i.e., "Is {passport number, name, dob, pob, issue date, expiry} valid?".
We should remember that the current (and likely future) administration is actively hostile to transgender and intersex people, and persecutes US citizens with changed gender identifiers. Discrimination based on ethnicity is only one Overton-lurch away.
some_random
What a stupid, hysterical claim. This "sensitive data" is just what's on your passport, fingerprints, criminal history, and terrorism flags (from European agencies), only for people crossing the border. I don't see how you could defend not sharing any of that.
show comments
mancerayder
Was Global Entry in the US a tactic to trick us into giving up our biometric data for speedy re-entry? I can say it's now barely faster than waiting behind the line for the stamper officials in their booths.
joeblubaugh
This is exactly what the EU does for foreigners entering
show comments
trilogic
I do not agree and do not consent to give away my biometric data. With which authority is this happening? Some are about to loose their job.
hulitu
Sell it ? That's a change. They give it for free.
was_a_dev
As an aside, I always find it amusing that as a British person that have visited both the US and the Schengen area since the new entry/exit system. Both the US and EU have taken my biometric information (i.e fingerprints) but the UK government has not.
show comments
LIMEVINCE
What a surprise, I heard nobody wants to travel to the US anyways. EU leaders seem to be making concessions for pretty much nothing. USA first needs to make the country desirable to visit before discussing ways to make it easier to come into the country -__-
EasyMark
This is not something I have a real issue with. Most of my privacy concerns are with my own government (the USA, Flock, various TLAs have unfettered communications access in violation of the 4th amendment, etc). I think the exchange of information should be mutual though. I don't care if they want to check me out before I enter their country, seems like a basic step. However, that info should not be shared until one gets a ticket/visa to said foreign country.
rocqua
Under the assumption that this framework is somewhat sane and only shares biometric data of those people who actually request an ESTA, I don't see the issue.
This data already leaks whenever you travel legally to the US, because they take it from you as a requirement of entry. All this does is let them check the data they take on entry against the provided data. Which seems fair. The fact this data is already in passports is a very different matter, but that is something the EU has done voluntarily.
show comments
lukasbm
The future is bleak.
show comments
artisinal
Last time I purchased a new passport my fingerprints got scanned and sent to a French private company. Not sure if this is worse or not.
raxxorraxor
As a European these texts are always a bit embarrassing. The evil USA that abuses our data...
No, European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.
You don't need the evil USA to reject biometric data gathering by government. You just need to get your largest boot and point it at the arse of the next public official that is responsible for YOU. Not some imaginary enemy behind a bit of water ffs... rant off
The mistake isn't some agreement with the USA, the problem is that this data might be available in the first place. And yes, this is a case where government/EU is NOT able to safeguard it.
Other than that the text is correct and then we should just need to deal with the realities of needing visas again.
> EDRi recommends the Commission and the Council to push back against the US government’s blackmail and refuse to sell people’s personal data
There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Especially if said officials have zero problems with this kind of surveillance. They just have to pretend that they do.
show comments
heyaco
dirty -scus. saw this christian make mabies with those things
khurs
I assume this works both ways? And USA is in return 'about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel' too
pluc
Why isn't screening tech globalized on a planetary level? Shouldn't someone like INTERPOL take care of that?
show comments
cloudie78
Democracy at work. Can we have a referendum on this? Or dirty peasants don’t get a say in this?
show comments
nonick
Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU and don't even benefit from visa-free travel to the US.
trolleski
EU selling out to the US, a shocker!
internet2000
Alarmism doesn't help anyone.
NietTim
So let me get this straight:
- Currently travelers to the US need to give biometric data each time they enter
- New DB connection between EU and US for this purpose
- People will _still_ need to give biometric data each time they enter in order to validate that they carry valid information
Further more, they claim that _the US_ will only request data from travelers. But, my country doesn't know if I travel and where. So the supposed privacy guarantees are empty claims.
It's not 2012 anymore. Everyone knows better, as soon as they get access to that DB, they will start working on scraping all data from it.
There is 0 upsides to this.
WhereIsTheTruth
The EU is not a serious institution, it's run by tasteless fraudsters
0 vision for the future
I could use much stronger words, but it's not worth it
How can you rally talents and visionaries when rulers are acting like that
Such a waste
protocolture
Actually a plot point in Charles Stross' Empire Games trilogy from memory.
cromka
Sell? Is US paying for it?
alden5
Am I the only person increasingly paranoid about the inevitability of having to give my fingerprints to the government? Once they're out there you can't exactly change them and in the future i'm sure imaging technology will become significantly advanced enough that a portable device could be made that identify everyone who touched a scanned surface. Maybe it's just a phobia I've had since I was super young but fingerprints feel like a really sensitive piece of biometrics to give up. I live in the US and have traveled to europe a few times but have never been fingerprinted as far as I'm aware.
_zoltan_
Finally.
raverbashing
These are the people that support "Decolourizing digital rights" (whatever that means).
Sounds like they also don't believe in borders or immigration enforcement, etc
I can't take them seriously
hexo
Biometric database thats supposed to not exist at all in the first place? Interesting.
gib444
On "selling out" claims. Yet again people not reading the article and trying to misrepresent who was the driving force:
> In 2022, the US government announced that it would require access to biometric databases of countries if they wish to keep visa exemption for their citizens travelling to the US
Big bad eu !!11!?!
show comments
shevy-java
This kind of reveals that the EU is undermined by lobbyists. The
real actions are too obvious - this is an act of betrayal by
EU "politicians".
At the least the orange king does not hide his attempt to pillage as much money as possible while refusing to explain who all visited the sexy Epstein islands. I have a ... slight suspicion some billionaires not known yet have also partied with underage girls there.
tokai
»It is on this basis that EU countries would then adopt their own bilateral EBSP agreements directly with the US (or adapt their existing arrangements).«
So nobody has sold anybody out yet. The solution is to never visit the USA.
show comments
bambax
Borders are generally insane. But they are especially rich coming from countries, like the US or many European countries that got most of their wealth from pillaging other territories.
Walls and steel doors are bad enough but it's a good thing we're not birds, or else the world would be covered with wire mesh.
The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
Unless it has changed recently Germany has no general database of biometric data. Of course law enforcement has for the cases they work on, but for the average passport holder the data gets destroyed once the passport has been accepted by the citizen. So it remains only decentralized in passport chips.
It's probably an exception in EU.
It's not clear to me if this would allow access to all biometric data, or "just" to that of people crossing the US border?
And for the latter, what data are we talking about? If it's mostly fingerprints, don't those already get collected upon crossing the border? And can't they already be read from a passport's chip?
This is a good thing for travellers.
In border security there are generally two camps, one that uses data and intelligence to go after the worst, large-scale criminal operations and networks, and generally makes travelling easy for the average person, and the other is like traditional cops using traditional tactics… the kind that will miss the person smuggling a kilogram of cocaine in their suitcase but will go after the old man who didn’t declare a pair of socks he bought on a trip. They generally make travel awful.
Support the intelligence-driven side of border security and reject the traditional cop camp.
I fail to understand the distinction between an ESTA and a visa to be honest. You need to do the paperwork in advance, pay, provide all sort of personal information, and it can be denied, and if approved only for a limited amount of time. Given that both the EU and the UK have reciprocated, it is a fiction that there exists some visa free travel between these 3 zones. And the more hassle you create, the less tourism you will get.
It shouldn't be possible for the US to request this data without the passport being physically present at a US entry facility (border, airport checkin scan, consulate) where fingerprints/photos are actually compared.
Before that point, only passport information tuples should be queryable, i.e., "Is {passport number, name, dob, pob, issue date, expiry} valid?".
We should remember that the current (and likely future) administration is actively hostile to transgender and intersex people, and persecutes US citizens with changed gender identifiers. Discrimination based on ethnicity is only one Overton-lurch away.
What a stupid, hysterical claim. This "sensitive data" is just what's on your passport, fingerprints, criminal history, and terrorism flags (from European agencies), only for people crossing the border. I don't see how you could defend not sharing any of that.
Was Global Entry in the US a tactic to trick us into giving up our biometric data for speedy re-entry? I can say it's now barely faster than waiting behind the line for the stamper officials in their booths.
This is exactly what the EU does for foreigners entering
I do not agree and do not consent to give away my biometric data. With which authority is this happening? Some are about to loose their job.
Sell it ? That's a change. They give it for free.
As an aside, I always find it amusing that as a British person that have visited both the US and the Schengen area since the new entry/exit system. Both the US and EU have taken my biometric information (i.e fingerprints) but the UK government has not.
What a surprise, I heard nobody wants to travel to the US anyways. EU leaders seem to be making concessions for pretty much nothing. USA first needs to make the country desirable to visit before discussing ways to make it easier to come into the country -__-
This is not something I have a real issue with. Most of my privacy concerns are with my own government (the USA, Flock, various TLAs have unfettered communications access in violation of the 4th amendment, etc). I think the exchange of information should be mutual though. I don't care if they want to check me out before I enter their country, seems like a basic step. However, that info should not be shared until one gets a ticket/visa to said foreign country.
Under the assumption that this framework is somewhat sane and only shares biometric data of those people who actually request an ESTA, I don't see the issue.
This data already leaks whenever you travel legally to the US, because they take it from you as a requirement of entry. All this does is let them check the data they take on entry against the provided data. Which seems fair. The fact this data is already in passports is a very different matter, but that is something the EU has done voluntarily.
The future is bleak.
Last time I purchased a new passport my fingerprints got scanned and sent to a French private company. Not sure if this is worse or not.
As a European these texts are always a bit embarrassing. The evil USA that abuses our data...
No, European countries suck completely on their own. There are people in jail without due process, we have histories full of systematic abuse of children/people with disabilities in care units, blatant disregard for constitutional rights by executive forces and you have these cases like this surfacing every other week.
You don't need the evil USA to reject biometric data gathering by government. You just need to get your largest boot and point it at the arse of the next public official that is responsible for YOU. Not some imaginary enemy behind a bit of water ffs... rant off
The mistake isn't some agreement with the USA, the problem is that this data might be available in the first place. And yes, this is a case where government/EU is NOT able to safeguard it.
Other than that the text is correct and then we should just need to deal with the realities of needing visas again.
> EDRi recommends the Commission and the Council to push back against the US government’s blackmail and refuse to sell people’s personal data
There is no leverage so I fail to see how this could succeed. Especially if said officials have zero problems with this kind of surveillance. They just have to pretend that they do.
dirty -scus. saw this christian make mabies with those things
I assume this works both ways? And USA is in return 'about to sell our most sensitive data to the US for visa-free travel' too
Why isn't screening tech globalized on a planetary level? Shouldn't someone like INTERPOL take care of that?
Democracy at work. Can we have a referendum on this? Or dirty peasants don’t get a say in this?
Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU and don't even benefit from visa-free travel to the US.
EU selling out to the US, a shocker!
Alarmism doesn't help anyone.
So let me get this straight:
- Currently travelers to the US need to give biometric data each time they enter
- New DB connection between EU and US for this purpose
- People will _still_ need to give biometric data each time they enter in order to validate that they carry valid information
Further more, they claim that _the US_ will only request data from travelers. But, my country doesn't know if I travel and where. So the supposed privacy guarantees are empty claims. It's not 2012 anymore. Everyone knows better, as soon as they get access to that DB, they will start working on scraping all data from it.
There is 0 upsides to this.
The EU is not a serious institution, it's run by tasteless fraudsters
0 vision for the future
I could use much stronger words, but it's not worth it
How can you rally talents and visionaries when rulers are acting like that
Such a waste
Actually a plot point in Charles Stross' Empire Games trilogy from memory.
Sell? Is US paying for it?
Am I the only person increasingly paranoid about the inevitability of having to give my fingerprints to the government? Once they're out there you can't exactly change them and in the future i'm sure imaging technology will become significantly advanced enough that a portable device could be made that identify everyone who touched a scanned surface. Maybe it's just a phobia I've had since I was super young but fingerprints feel like a really sensitive piece of biometrics to give up. I live in the US and have traveled to europe a few times but have never been fingerprinted as far as I'm aware.
Finally.
These are the people that support "Decolourizing digital rights" (whatever that means).
Sounds like they also don't believe in borders or immigration enforcement, etc
I can't take them seriously
Biometric database thats supposed to not exist at all in the first place? Interesting.
On "selling out" claims. Yet again people not reading the article and trying to misrepresent who was the driving force:
> In 2022, the US government announced that it would require access to biometric databases of countries if they wish to keep visa exemption for their citizens travelling to the US
Big bad eu !!11!?!
This kind of reveals that the EU is undermined by lobbyists. The real actions are too obvious - this is an act of betrayal by EU "politicians".
Then again this is not uncommon either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_th...
At the least the orange king does not hide his attempt to pillage as much money as possible while refusing to explain who all visited the sexy Epstein islands. I have a ... slight suspicion some billionaires not known yet have also partied with underage girls there.
»It is on this basis that EU countries would then adopt their own bilateral EBSP agreements directly with the US (or adapt their existing arrangements).«
So nobody has sold anybody out yet. The solution is to never visit the USA.
Borders are generally insane. But they are especially rich coming from countries, like the US or many European countries that got most of their wealth from pillaging other territories.
Walls and steel doors are bad enough but it's a good thing we're not birds, or else the world would be covered with wire mesh.