Most everyone would love to see more work on stopping child sexual abuse.
But this is the ultimate "grant me dictatorial powers so I can do good" play.
Rather than narrow and specific - it's a broad based law that suddenly touches everyone even though offenders are a small percentage and should be able to be targeted more efficiently.
show comments
worldsayshi
> Is scanning mandatory? - No — voluntary.
Voluntary for whom? The service provider? Can I opt out of getting scanned?
> Does it touch encrypted messages? - No. End-to-end encrypted communications were never scanned but providers could deploy client-side scanning under this law.
So it circumvents e2e encryption?
---
How would these laws prevent me from just side loading my own open source client?
show comments
arjie
I don't understand. How does it affect encrypted messages? It seems like either you need:
1. allow MITM decryption by a privileged authority
2. require all devices doing E2EE have a non-user-modifiable piece of functionality to scan on-device
The second is the Apple style on-device CSAM scanner? I have to say that I do sometimes think about it while taking a photo of my baby playing in the bathtub - photos like my parents have of me which have been kind of nice to see later. It would be a pity if I had to have a separate analog camera just for baby photos because then I'd need to learn the whole developing film stuff.
show comments
coffeebeanHH
Excuse me, you have to vote a majority against something that only a bunch if suckers want? If they want a new law they should have a majority to get it. Shitshow in brussels.
1vuio0pswjnm7
If so-called "tech" companies are allowed to have control over internet users' communications ("chat control"), where control over communications lies _exclusively with the company, not the user_,^1 then it stands to reason that governments, among others, may influence how that control is exercised
Unlike governments, generally, the companies may use control over communications for any purpose. For example, a surveillance-based advertising services is one purpose that we know about. The companies can collaborate with any party; it may be another another company, it may be a government. The company can utilise surveillance data collected and/or its ability to throttle and censor communications to further any purpose. The parties with whom the company collaborates may potentially use the data for any purpose
Unfortunately for users, the company is not required to disclose with whom it collaborates nor the terms of such collaborations. Hence users have no way to verfiy. Users of these "free services", have few, if any, rights against the company
This situation is preventable. What enables it to exist is user "consent" to ceding control over their private communications ("chat control") to so-called "tech" companies
1. This is accomplished through granting the company total control over the client software, e.g., "automatic updates'. The company effectvely (a) blocks chat participants from using their own client software and (b) forces chat participants to use client software controlled by the so-called 'tech" company. This software is provided for free and primarily serves the company, not the user, advancing the company's commercial interests, e.g., surveillance-based advertising services, at the expense of the user's privacy and security interests
The same governments pushing for this type of regulation are also the ones that fail to condemn high profile individuals involved in the crimes that these regulation are supposed to help fight. Makes you really wonder if it's about protecting the children.
show comments
rixed
So many messages about child safety in the press and even here...
Who cares about chat control when they already have mind control.
Zufriedenheit
They claim to protect consumers and privacy and then push this creepy surveillance state.
show comments
kvgr
What i found the most fascinating, is that they say its to protect children. But when you look at real child abuse cases, there are huge gaps in sentencing, policing and protecting kids in all countries. Where i live child abuser will get lower sentence than someone who sold weed.
There is a lot of real police work that can be done, honey trap pedos on roblox, infiltrate public whatsapp groups to check and monitor for soliciting. Actually listening and responding to child abuse. Work with schools. But this just requires real work. They don't want to do real work. And at the end, it will get thrown out by some senile corrupted judge.
Because of the excessive growing corruption in the EU, their politicians have decided to restrict all opposition. This corruption is hidden behind double-speak, demonization and censorship. Even putting people in prison who talk about the crimes that they endured.
Instead of using the criticism to improve the system, the corrupt system starts to attack and forbid the criticism.
show comments
olejorgenb
Chat control 1.0
"A temporary derogation from the ePrivacy Directive that allowed (but did not require) providers to scan private messages of unsuspected users for potential child sexual abuse material."
Does that imply it's currently not allowed?
EDIT: apparently not enforced at least:
"Chat Control 1.0 expires
The legal ground for voluntary, indiscriminate scanning ends. Google, Meta, Microsoft, and Snap state they will continue scanning private messages regardless. "
show comments
coffeebeanHH
Oh its this time of the year again.... Fucking right and conservative folks.
I really hope Uschi von der Ehrm Leyen doesn't have to make her chats public..
emadb
What european parties or people are pushing for chat controls?
show comments
kotberg
EuSSR = "Demooocrazy" in action. Enjoy. You Liberals cried for it.
marcyb5st
How do they scan e2e encrypted messages? Will they force apps/OSes to have master keys/institutional backdoors to have access to the private keys?
show comments
phtrivier
So, ChatControl 1.0 (the volontary, limited one that expired and is being revived) has been active for about 2 years now.
Concretely, are there documented examples of abuses ? Are the checks & balance sufficient ? I understand ChatControl 2.0 goes way beyond, be it goes "beyond" enough that it does not get a majority in parlement, and can't move forward.
But for CC1.0 we don't need to imagine anymore - we have 2 years of application. Is that enough to evaluate ?
kailpa1
I don't understand how Bulgaria supports the idea while most of its representatives are allegedly against it. How does that work?
show comments
testhest
Things like this is why I no longer support the EU at all.
zoobab
Age verification for 'appstores' (debian repos?) is inside ChatControl v2.
show comments
rwq-askh
EU politicians spend more time on chat control than on the reopening of Hormuz or EU energy security. It is a complete joke.
When it comes to online actions people ask for way more than reasonable. You dont get to be an invisible, impossible to track, unaccountable hacker man free to roam the internet on equal footing to the rest of the users.
show comments
terabytest
As a EU citizen I’m at a loss for what to do about this. I feel that they’re going against any average citizen’s interest. What can we do to make them stop?
show comments
shevy-java
Lobbyists control the EU. So much is clear to everyone now.
I think there is no way to fix this system from the inside - it is
designed to be abused like that. We need an alternative system.
It's funny they thing criminals are using those platforms for discussion
show comments
mbmbn
Would these measures have prevented, for instance, the generalized Rape Gangs they had in the UK and that were hidden by the authorities to keep some weird idea of social peace?
cynicalsecurity
To everyone who wants to dismantle the EU: this is not the solution. Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. The UK left the EU and implemented its own version of chat control - Online Safety Act - without any transparency or real opposition. The right solution is the political fight. Europe is our home. We must keep it in good shape by getting rid of anything that makes it worse - like Chat Control.
show comments
nlarion
Charlatans and demagogues.
michaelmrose
How many child abusers are liable to be detected using platforms that are known to report you when you can google (or chatGPT) how to avoid detection?
nnurmanov
Wake me up in 100 years and ask me what EU politicians are doing.
My answer: regulating something:)
smashah
Why do these Epsteinist Occupied Governments think they'll get away with this unscathed. These demons are addicted to destroying freedom.
Most everyone would love to see more work on stopping child sexual abuse.
But this is the ultimate "grant me dictatorial powers so I can do good" play.
Rather than narrow and specific - it's a broad based law that suddenly touches everyone even though offenders are a small percentage and should be able to be targeted more efficiently.
> Is scanning mandatory? - No — voluntary.
Voluntary for whom? The service provider? Can I opt out of getting scanned?
> Does it touch encrypted messages? - No. End-to-end encrypted communications were never scanned but providers could deploy client-side scanning under this law.
So it circumvents e2e encryption?
---
How would these laws prevent me from just side loading my own open source client?
I don't understand. How does it affect encrypted messages? It seems like either you need:
1. allow MITM decryption by a privileged authority
2. require all devices doing E2EE have a non-user-modifiable piece of functionality to scan on-device
The second is the Apple style on-device CSAM scanner? I have to say that I do sometimes think about it while taking a photo of my baby playing in the bathtub - photos like my parents have of me which have been kind of nice to see later. It would be a pity if I had to have a separate analog camera just for baby photos because then I'd need to learn the whole developing film stuff.
Excuse me, you have to vote a majority against something that only a bunch if suckers want? If they want a new law they should have a majority to get it. Shitshow in brussels.
If so-called "tech" companies are allowed to have control over internet users' communications ("chat control"), where control over communications lies _exclusively with the company, not the user_,^1 then it stands to reason that governments, among others, may influence how that control is exercised
Unlike governments, generally, the companies may use control over communications for any purpose. For example, a surveillance-based advertising services is one purpose that we know about. The companies can collaborate with any party; it may be another another company, it may be a government. The company can utilise surveillance data collected and/or its ability to throttle and censor communications to further any purpose. The parties with whom the company collaborates may potentially use the data for any purpose
Unfortunately for users, the company is not required to disclose with whom it collaborates nor the terms of such collaborations. Hence users have no way to verfiy. Users of these "free services", have few, if any, rights against the company
This situation is preventable. What enables it to exist is user "consent" to ceding control over their private communications ("chat control") to so-called "tech" companies
1. This is accomplished through granting the company total control over the client software, e.g., "automatic updates'. The company effectvely (a) blocks chat participants from using their own client software and (b) forces chat participants to use client software controlled by the so-called 'tech" company. This software is provided for free and primarily serves the company, not the user, advancing the company's commercial interests, e.g., surveillance-based advertising services, at the expense of the user's privacy and security interests
This fact was summarised in a submission that reached the HN front page yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48792203
The same governments pushing for this type of regulation are also the ones that fail to condemn high profile individuals involved in the crimes that these regulation are supposed to help fight. Makes you really wonder if it's about protecting the children.
So many messages about child safety in the press and even here... Who cares about chat control when they already have mind control.
They claim to protect consumers and privacy and then push this creepy surveillance state.
What i found the most fascinating, is that they say its to protect children. But when you look at real child abuse cases, there are huge gaps in sentencing, policing and protecting kids in all countries. Where i live child abuser will get lower sentence than someone who sold weed. There is a lot of real police work that can be done, honey trap pedos on roblox, infiltrate public whatsapp groups to check and monitor for soliciting. Actually listening and responding to child abuse. Work with schools. But this just requires real work. They don't want to do real work. And at the end, it will get thrown out by some senile corrupted judge.
They just want total control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
Because of the excessive growing corruption in the EU, their politicians have decided to restrict all opposition. This corruption is hidden behind double-speak, demonization and censorship. Even putting people in prison who talk about the crimes that they endured.
Instead of using the criticism to improve the system, the corrupt system starts to attack and forbid the criticism.
Chat control 1.0
"A temporary derogation from the ePrivacy Directive that allowed (but did not require) providers to scan private messages of unsuspected users for potential child sexual abuse material."
Does that imply it's currently not allowed?
EDIT: apparently not enforced at least:
"Chat Control 1.0 expires
The legal ground for voluntary, indiscriminate scanning ends. Google, Meta, Microsoft, and Snap state they will continue scanning private messages regardless. "
Oh its this time of the year again.... Fucking right and conservative folks. I really hope Uschi von der Ehrm Leyen doesn't have to make her chats public..
What european parties or people are pushing for chat controls?
EuSSR = "Demooocrazy" in action. Enjoy. You Liberals cried for it.
How do they scan e2e encrypted messages? Will they force apps/OSes to have master keys/institutional backdoors to have access to the private keys?
So, ChatControl 1.0 (the volontary, limited one that expired and is being revived) has been active for about 2 years now.
Concretely, are there documented examples of abuses ? Are the checks & balance sufficient ? I understand ChatControl 2.0 goes way beyond, be it goes "beyond" enough that it does not get a majority in parlement, and can't move forward.
But for CC1.0 we don't need to imagine anymore - we have 2 years of application. Is that enough to evaluate ?
I don't understand how Bulgaria supports the idea while most of its representatives are allegedly against it. How does that work?
Things like this is why I no longer support the EU at all.
Age verification for 'appstores' (debian repos?) is inside ChatControl v2.
EU politicians spend more time on chat control than on the reopening of Hormuz or EU energy security. It is a complete joke.
So, I blinked and forgot to check for updates on this and they voted a few hours ago to reinstate this... https://www.heise.de/en/news/Showdown-in-Strasbourg-The-unex...
This website is gold, thanks for all the work.
When it comes to online actions people ask for way more than reasonable. You dont get to be an invisible, impossible to track, unaccountable hacker man free to roam the internet on equal footing to the rest of the users.
As a EU citizen I’m at a loss for what to do about this. I feel that they’re going against any average citizen’s interest. What can we do to make them stop?
Lobbyists control the EU. So much is clear to everyone now.
I think there is no way to fix this system from the inside - it is designed to be abused like that. We need an alternative system.
Related today:
Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48819008
Anyone know how Signal is responding to this? They ARE E2EE.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=COM:2022...
It's funny they thing criminals are using those platforms for discussion
Would these measures have prevented, for instance, the generalized Rape Gangs they had in the UK and that were hidden by the authorities to keep some weird idea of social peace?
To everyone who wants to dismantle the EU: this is not the solution. Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. The UK left the EU and implemented its own version of chat control - Online Safety Act - without any transparency or real opposition. The right solution is the political fight. Europe is our home. We must keep it in good shape by getting rid of anything that makes it worse - like Chat Control.
Charlatans and demagogues.
How many child abusers are liable to be detected using platforms that are known to report you when you can google (or chatGPT) how to avoid detection?
Wake me up in 100 years and ask me what EU politicians are doing.
My answer: regulating something:)
Why do these Epsteinist Occupied Governments think they'll get away with this unscathed. These demons are addicted to destroying freedom.