I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression that "você" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portuguese is to call someone "o Senhor/a Senhora" based on their gender, with a singular third person declination. And in the countryside, it is common to hear people use "Doutor/Doutora" the same way they would use the normal formal language when addressing educated people or land-owners.

Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal language was disrespectful because it created an artificial distance between us and the other person. We were also taught never to use the formal language when praying for the same reason. However, other people are taught to use the formal language towards bosses and elders, also with a respect rationale, and some other folks in Brazil (even from big cities) actually require that their children address them with formal language. So now when in doubt I use the formal language with people that are much older than I am although that feels utterly unnatural to me, but I always make people comfortable to use the informal with me as I personally find this to be more respectful.

Just one more comment: in Brazil it is unfortunately the case that some offices have a standard treatment like "your excellency", etc, which are nominally meant to respect the office but in reality become a kind of test of compliance and obedience. I recall in particular one incident where an attorney presenting in front of the Supreme Court was severely reprimanded for not address justices with the proper term. Personally, I am not sure that required compliance with a style - by regulation or by societal expectations - is indeed "respect" if it is not matched with actions and posture that really reflect due consideration towards the other person.

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.)

I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name.

Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not the case anymore.

In the USA as a low-level employee address the company CEO as "heya phil, hows it going?". Then address your friend with "Hello Mr. Smith". In most cases you won't get a positive reaction out of either one of those (yes exceptions exist).

How about this: address your husband/wife as "Mr/Mrs <lastname>", especially after a fight. Similarly when the kids have been doing something or you are frustrated with your partner say "your son did X".

Every language has explicit and implicit rules for expressing honor, respect, and closeness. Informal systems can vary more often and be more fluid but they always exist.

This article does not address another layer that makes the Korean age system complicated: the "빠른" system. It refers to people born in January or February who, due to the school cutoff being in March, often enter school a year early and socially identify with those born in the previous calendar year.

For example, if I'm "빠른95", which indicates that I was born in 1995 between January and the end of February, I get to befriend and hang out with the ones born in 1994.

(Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the same narrow age band.)

Koreans have some "hacks" to get around this (age-based) social hierarchy:

1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language.

2. Social (partnered) dance clubs go by nicknames for the same reason. Even though I dance with them on a regular basis, I don't know most of my dance friends' real names. I'm not aware of any other country where dancers do this.

Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider.

When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50).

I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan.

One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack. She refused to believe I was a foreigner.

On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was sad, I clearly did something wrong.

The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary...

This "high power distance" culture contributed to several airline crashes in the 80s and 90s because people under the captain wouldn't dare to question the captain's decisions.

One in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801

I met a Korean classmate while studying Chinese together in China. We really hit it off, and on our first date she unexpectedly asked how old I was. When I told her I was a couple of years older, she gently explained that we couldn’t be together. Well.. I couldn’t understand it, feelings were mutual, it was like we were meant for each other, and all that was thrown because of age difference, how stupid.

As a young man many years ago I happened to be in Seoul, in a shoe store. I was casually asking prices in English and noticed the salesman or owner was getting visibly angry with me. So much so that as I went around the corner of the store I clearly saw that he had begun advancing toward me, with every intention of physically attacking me. I put my hand forward to stop him and as I did, I shouted loudly, again in English, "Stop. Let me outta here!" To which he suddenly hesitated, stepped aside and let me go.

I wondered for years what I might have done to upset the bloke - he was a well built man and I did not want to fight him! It was only after the KAL crash and the coverage it gave the Korean focus on seniority and age that the penny dropped. He thought I was Korean - I do look very Korean (and Japanese and Chinese) - and was clearly offended by my not respecting his age.

At least that is what I would like to think. The alternative is that I was somehow very offensive anyway and I'd like not to think that.

It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used.

The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness:

> [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casual style with each other will suddenly switch to a formal style after they fight, to demonstrate the distance they feel from each other.

From a related discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2...

[1]: https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg...

(2024) But also:

South Koreans become younger overnight after country scraps ‘Korean age’ (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797

The end of the tricky 'Korean age' (3 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571

From the perspective of national and social development, this is definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and hinders resistance and innovation.

Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a perverted etiquette system at all.

I find it really interesting how much weight that simple question "What year were you born?" carries in Korean social life. A Korean friend once told me that it’s not about prying into your private life, it’s about figuring out how to talk to you and what to call you.

It also made me realize that a lot of the small social details we take for granted might seem really jarring or even rude in another culture.

Sort of like horses.

https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-sam...

A not dissimilar age thing I've found interesting is from India: it is (or can be? Big country) typical to age yourself by the year of life you're in, i.e. 1-based rather than 0-based, basically.

On his birthday my grandfather in law said 'I am x years old! [...] Oh, no, x-1 complete.'

It's funny these kinds of arbitrary systems for things we have, and never question, until you suddenly stumble into one that's slightly different.

I've been told the one reason why Japanese is so hard to learn is because there is an underlying etiquette and social hierarchy built into the language and it is not simply being able to understand and speak the words.

Native speakers tolerate errors when it's obvious someone is non-native, but become offended when they speak it perfectly, but screw up the social heirarchy, so it's extremely hard to progress beyond a certain point.

I despise the social construct that ties respect to age. As someone who’s biologically Japanese—and coming from a culture that shares similar values with Korean society in this regard—I often find it frustrating when dealing with other Japanese people.

Some individuals will ask your age just so they can justify talking down to you. I’ve even had cases where someone was polite at first, but the moment they realized they were older, their behavior shifted entirely. That kind of attitude is a major pet peeve of mine—it honestly makes me want to pull my hair out.

While the younger generation tends to care less about age differences among peers (and thankfully avoids this behavior), there are still far too many people who believe age alone gives them the right to act superior or pretend they know better.

I strongly believe respect should be earned based on character, not age. I make a point to be polite to everyone, regardless of how old they are—and that’s why I don’t even bother asking.

A friend (not Korean) said on his 29th birthday that he's starting his 30th year of life. It was an interesting perspective, because in general we celebrate our nth birthday after completing n years of life.

The fact that all Koreans that were born in the same year become of a legal age to drink on the same day, probably creates some cool memories if you drink responsibly

This exists in all Uralic-Altaic languages; Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese, Finnish, Hungarian and Tungus. It is build in the language/culure.

How does this generally work with romantic relationships? Do people usually only start relationships if they are of the same age?

'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude'

This is most likely an equivalent to thee/thou which was considered rude to use for one's superiors or elders as in:

"Don't tha "thee" me!" - it's ok for me to use for you but not t'other way round.

Now many believe thou/thee to be respectful because of the bible, where in fact it is used as familiarity.

Good job the Matrix wasn't set in Korea

I did some work (military) with a couple asian nations during a multinational exercise. It was all done in english. What blew them away was how our honorifics changes not just according to the established hierarchies but according to location, dress and who else was within earshot. I had a junior guy from an asian nation shadowing me. He was shocked when my officer and I addressed each other by first names/callsigns. What stressed my shadow was how twenty minutes later, in a different room with different people, we switched to formal ranks. What further blew his mind was my explanation that breaks from these casual informalities would be a silent message. For instance, if a friend addressed me in private by my formal rank, I would know that I was in trouble ... or that someone was listening. He thought our culture was the more complicated. His culture had rules that everyone knew and followed. Our culture had rules that everyone knew but nobody seemed to follow.

Korean age is a hack that helps ease the friction that all those rules of seniority and different speech levels impose on us.

It gives you an age bracket within which everyone is equal, once and for all, regardless of their exact date of birth. Your friend isn't suddenly going to speak down to you when he turns 7 and you're still 6, except perhaps as a joke. Both of you are 8 in Korean age, and will turn 9 at the exact same moment. This age bracket produces a stable peer group who can remain friends for life, regardless of when or where individuals went to school, got a job, or enlisted in the army -- all the other places where hierarchy can be imposed.

Of course, the year is also important for reasons of superstition. There are still some elderly people who ask for the (Chinese zodiac) animal associated with your year of birth, instead of the year itself.

What would be the polite way to decline to answer the question? Is that even possible?

I'm surprised they ask for the year directly. My impression is that in China, if you want to know someone's age, you ask for the animal of their birth year. That gives you the year mod 12, which you're expected to be able to resolve to a particular year yourself.

As far as I can tell, everything in this article applies to Japan as well.

Those Korean kids born on December 31st must be the kings and queens of their peer group when they become eligible to buy alcohol two years ahead of the others!

Most Vietnamese do the same things too.

Is it more or less beneficial to birth a Korean child on December 31 so they can be two years in Korean Age ASAP? Thinking about their career prospects, certain legal requirements etc. if older is better, it seems like you’d want to hit that December 31st birth date.

'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude.'

That makes me wonder how the preferred third person pronoun movement works in Korea...

Koreans from Korea often do not follow this rule outside of the country. They basically use it whenever it benefits them. So in essence this aspect of the culture is pretty much…BS.